Weapons as AC: It's about time...

[Ninja-to]

I don't think that BAB is a good thing to use to modify AC. I'd like to keep things as simple as possible.

But I wouldn't mind if weapons added a modifier to armor class. Since different weapons are going to have different abilities (at least for fighters (who take certain feats?)?), one of the things they could do is affect armor class.

It's really simple as BaB. It's one number, just like holding a shield. Nothing else to calculate.

As far as balancing it for monks, wizards etc, it's really not much different. A mage trying to go toe to toe in melee against a warrior is sure to get schooled. Actually, this idea makes the mage more likely to defend himself. It's more balanced for the monk/wizard to not get hit if their AC is higher, it just means they're also less likely to hit the warrior.

As I said BaB is just a quick and dirty method. There could just as easily be a seperate column on a table stating "Base Attack Bonus" "Base Defense Bonus" and I honestly don't see how that would be much more complicated. You calculate this number in once per level just as you do with BaB now. Would take an extra 3 seconds of thought.

Point is to all this, and I think everyone has agreed so far:

AC should scale with level and skill, not just equipment. Wearing no armour at all should be no problem for high level characters vs low levels. Countless examples in literature and movies abound where the heroes never get hit and none are wearing armour...

 

[marune]

Try to do some buffer-swords LARP without wearing armor or shield, and you'll see how important is a weapon for defense

 

[Branduil]

The problem with this is it doesn't take into account range weapons. One, a sword would be pretty useless against arrows, unless you allow for jedi-type deflections. Two, it makes no sense that holding a bow or a crossbow would give you extra AC. But if you don't give them extra AC, all the archers would just target each other instead of tanks because it's so much easier to hit other archers.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Couldn't the reason those fights stop in movies, books etc be because the one character can no longer counter attack and to get his weapon he'd have to provoke AoO, therefore turning an even fight into an one where the foe has a clear advantage?
I guess I'm saying I don't know if there is a need for this sorta rule.


If you add BAB to AC then ACs will become unhittable sometime around level 5-10. I mean theres ways to work around this, but it needs to be considered.
Quick Solution to Perceived Problem: If you lack Improved Unarmed Strike and are with out a drawn weapon or shield you take a -5 penalty to AC.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

As far as balancing it for monks, wizards etc, it's really not much different. A mage trying to go toe to toe in melee against a warrior is sure to get schooled. Actually, this idea makes the mage more likely to defend himself. It's more balanced for the monk/wizard to not get hit if their AC is higher, it just means they're also less likely to hit the warrior.

I think you miss my meaning. I don't expect a wizard to go into melee; rather, melee can come to them! Unless their spells are cranked up, they're going to die. You'll end up in a situation where every wizard learns and casts Overland Flight.

AC should scale with level and skill, not just equipment. Wearing no armour at all should be no problem for high level characters vs low levels. Countless examples in literature and movies abound where the heroes never get hit and none are wearing armour...

This is exactly how d20 Modern does it, and it works great. You don't need special classes to be a Modern swashbuckler (which is kind of ironic, as swashbuckler is a pre-modern concept).

 

[Arkhandus]

But D20 Modern's Base Defense Bonus is generally lower than BAB (with the exception of Fast Heroes and maybe some Advanced Class, who have mediocre BAB and high BDB that matches). You don't want AC to become so high that nobody can hit anybody else (or that only full warriors can hit anything, while everyone else is useless in combat, like bards, monks, clerics, druids, rogues, and other medium-BAB classes).

 

[Arkhandus]

A very simple rule, and not an over-powered one, is apply Base Attack Bonus to AC.

You say that now, but you wouldn't be saying it if you saw any of the high AC builds people use!

Like the swordsage/warblade Zief that I threw at my group last week, whom the party's own swordsage could hardly hit (and Zief wasn't even using Combat Expertise, fighting defensively, a Defending weapon....etc., because he wanted to be able to hit the other guy rather than just be unhittable himself).

Or the Kensei mecha design I have for D20 Future, and its pilot, who's Defense (which is D20 Modern's term for AC) is in the 50s normally, before he even tries to do anything defensive. He's unhittable in melee except on a natural 20, too, because the pilot's Unbalance Opponent feat means that one foe is denied their Str bonus on attack rolls against him. And all I was meaning to build was an opponent that was just a good challenge for the PC cyborg death-machine with his modified, upgraded Boulder mecha! Only I built it too well....

 

[Woas]

The problem is, is that having BAB (or some other special number) go to AC doesn't help the fact that the fighter has been disarmed and is now without sword.

Nemesis: Got your sword! (Fighter's sword clangs to the ground).
Fighter: Thats ok. I still got my BAB so my AC stays the same!

The rumors say that fighters and melee type characters are going to have a plethora of weapon-style feats for all sorts of weapons to make each fighter feel unique from the next. I could definetly see a weapon-style line for certain weapons, the rapier specifically, that gave the character a big AC bonus (maybe a Shield bonus) when they had their weapon ready. But straight BAB to AC doesn't really seem right.

 

[F4NBOY]

I'm confused about this thread.
What's the main idea here, to create a Base Defense Bonus or to create a mechanic so weapons give AC bonus?

 

[GSHamster]

I'm confused about this thread.
What's the main idea here, to create a Base Defense Bonus or to create a mechanic so weapons give AC bonus?

I think they're suggesting that Armor provides damage reduction, but you need to roll against 10 + Dex + BAB in order to actually hit the person. BAB represents defensive skill with the weapon you are using, as well as offensive.