Weapons as AC: It's about time...

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Linking BAB to Defense basically means that those that are already good in melee combat are getting even better, and everyone else is worse off.

I think level based attack and defense might work in D&D, but they shouldn't be the same value.

The Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay uses a Meelee Weapon Skill as a base for attacks.
In some cases, you are allowed to use your weapon skill to parry, but there are some important considerations to it:
1) Your own parry result is not linked to the attackers attack skill. It is a skill purely based on your own weapon skill. That's very important.
2) You need to spend half your actions per round to get one parry.
3) If you are using a shield or a second weapon in your off-hand, you can parry without taking an action. A shield also gets you a +10% bonus to attacks. If you're using a two-handed weapon (and these are usually the ones that deal the most damage or have other benefits), it's a lot more difficult to parry.

1) Is very important for balance reasons. It means that you can succeed at parrying even if your enemy is a lot better than you, because it is only based on your skills. In D&D 3.x, attack bonus differences between different characters can be so high that the range of a d20 is not sufficient to get you a reasonable chance to defend yourself. (d20+6 vs d20+19? Little chance to succeed)
2) Second makes two(or more)-on-one fights a lot more dangerous. It also means that even the best fighter cannot parry everything. (In the Starwars Saga Edition, that's what the -5 penalty to lightsaber parrying will achieve, too)
3) This makes shield and off-hand weapons very useful, without causing them to be overpowered.

Warhammer Fantasy Rolelplay also has a "Dodge Skill", which gives you the change to dodge a meelee attack. You also get only one chance per round, and this roll is not based on your weapon skill. (It's a must have for all meelee fighters, I think.)

Both defenses do not work against ranged attacks. Ranged Attacks, if succesful, are undefendable, but this is compensated by a lot more negative modifiers applicable to Ranged Attacks. (Or at least that's the idea. I am not sure how well it really works, as I haven't played it much. I sure didn't have the feeling that my Road Warden armed with Pistols was overpowered, though)

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[Thundershield]

IME, save boni were never overpowered. You targeted a weak save, and if you didn't know which was the weak save, you guessed. If it didn't work, try another save type... or Enervation.

Or ran out of spells, or died after wasting rounds inefficiently, and some pretty nasty enemies (outsiders, anyone?) have good saves all the way, and usually pretty good ability scores as well, not to mention spell resistance and energy resistances aplenty.

Anyway, with the Vancian magic system mostly abandoned, wasting spells won't be that big of a deal anymore.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Or ran out of spells, or died after wasting rounds inefficiently, and some pretty nasty enemies (outsiders, anyone?) have good saves all the way, and usually pretty good ability scores as well, not to mention spell resistance and energy resistances aplenty.

That almost never happened to me with a few levels. The biggest problem was picking spells I didn't use the day (eg it doesn't matter how useful Energy Resistance is, if the one time you got hit by a fire spell you hadn't cast it). This happened even at the higher levels when facing demons (SR, good all-round saves, etc). Of course, it helped that I always prepped a few spells like Heightened Glitterdust and O's Resilient Sphere ^^

 

[Felon]

A weapon should definitely count as a defense. It's really odd having a fighter in full plate, unarmed, being just as unlikely to hit as when he's wielding his sword.

Player - Ok, I disarm the BBEG.
DM - Ok, his sword drops.
Player - I attack!
DM - Ok... AC is exactly the same. Hmm... hold on. Um yeah... it's the same.

This has another excellent bonus, free, and only if you (WotC) act now! Not only is it far more realistic, the players, especially the fighters, are going to be *far* less reliant on gear to defend themselves. If there's so much as a chair on the floor or a loose plank, a highly trained fighter will have a chance to defend himself from being slaughtered because he slept in the Inn without his +5 full plate. Call me crazy, but the flimsy cloth the kung-fu masters wore in Crouching Tiger wasn't enchanted. They just knew how to defend themselves *really* well... even a stick can outmatch Green Destiny folks... it's true cuz me seens it.

You start out saying it's "really odd" that a character shouldn't lose AC for being unarmed, but you close by accepting that a character can defend himself with a worthless stick. You want realism, but you also want Crouching Tiger kung-fu moves. That's pretty inconsistent. Why don't weapons matter in D&D defense? Because they often shouldn't. It's not realistic that having a knife in your hand should affect someone's chances of shooting you with a ranged weapon, or that the huge chances that some monster's two-ton claw should be parried by a rapier.

In the end, I don't see any benefit really gained here, other than some sense of verisimilitude that starts to fall apart once the combats stop being between humanoids with melee weapons. Mechanically, it doesn't provide any special advantage. Indeed, D&D's combat system really needs to allows for hits to exceed misses, not equal or fall short.

 

[Li Shenron]

Conan D20 has parry defense and dodge defense. Your AC basically improves automatically as you level. You use dodge against ranged attacks, and parry against melee attacks. Your Dodge AC is Dex-based, your Parry AC is Str-based. And you can only parry if you have a weapon.

Sound nice, but we already have a bonus to AC for dodging with good rules:

- Dex bonus to AC
- doesn't apply when flat-footed and other circumstances
- is limited by the armor worn

I think it would already be good enough to add a property to weapons like this:

- Str bonus to AC
- doesn't apply when unarmed
- is limited by the weapon used

So for example a spear (not suitable for parrying) could have max Str bonus to AC +0, while a heavy mace (sounds useful) could have max Str bonus to AC +4.

 

[Jhaelen]

I fail to see any advantage unless you change the combat rules into one of those systems which have both parry and dodge mechanisms - and I know, I wouldn't like D&D to go that route, too.

As others have already mentioned the combat rules will have to cover a lot more situations than a duel between two armed opponents, which is really the only situations where these rules offer any advantage or are more 'realistic'.

 

[JVisgaitis]

One way to do this would be: A character who does not threaten any squares (as defined in the rules for Attacks of Opportunity) takes a -4 penalty to AC versus the melee attacks of any character who does threaten his square.

Basically, if your weapon is good enough that you threaten for AoOs, it's also good enough to help you parry attacks.

Gold star for you! There is way too much baggage to do this any other way. Only problem is, we don't know how AOO will work in 4e. Either way, I'm house ruling this in my games as it makes so much sense and is easy to apply. I will probably make it a -5 penalty though.

 

[Eric Tolle]

There's already some perfectly serviceable alternative rules that cover this area:

Defense Bonus

Armor as Damage Reduction

Even if this isn't quite what one is looking for, it's a good start. There's no need to go reinventing the wheel.

 

[Lonely Tylenol]

Armour as BAB

Okay, with all the discussion about changing saving throws into attacks, weapons as AC, etc. I think I have an idea whose time has come: Armour as BAB. Instead of the attacker rolling to hit, the defender rolls to see whether he blocks the incoming attack with his shell of armour.

On the horizon: healing potions as temporary hitpoints, skills rolls being replaced by incompetence rolls, movement rate replaced by "failure to stand still", weapon damage replaced by rolling to see how much damage you avoid taking, up is down, black is white.

 

[F4NBOY]

Okay, with all the discussion about changing saving throws into attacks, weapons as AC, etc. I think I have an idea whose time has come: Armour as BAB. Instead of the attacker rolling to hit, the defender rolls to see whether he blocks the incoming attack with his shell of armour.

On the horizon: healing potions as temporary hitpoints, skills rolls being replaced by incompetence rolls, movement rate replaced by "failure to stand still", weapon damage replaced by rolling to see how much damage you avoid taking, up is down, black is white.

Don't give them ideas

And don't forget: Characters start at level 20, leveling down at every -1000 xp.