We're back to AD&D1

[Agamon]

I don't see how the combat orientation of the rules and inability to use them in a less combat oriented setting correlates. When combat's not happening, roleplaying is happening. When combat is happening, there's some damn fine rules to use.

And correct me if I'm mistaken, but doesn't the character creation section go more in depth with how to develop a PCs personality than the 3e PHB did?

Am I missing something?

 

[Henry]

I am sure that they will eventually release Dungeons and Dragons, Asperger's Edition that will carefully and in great detail describe rules for basic social interaction such that they need to be carefully adjudicated with rules.

REALLY uncalled for. Let's please everyone get a lot less hostile to fellow posters.

 

[silentounce]

REALLY uncalled for. Let's please everyone get a lot less hostile to fellow posters.

I don't see how what he said was hostile. I actually thought it was amusing in a kidding sort of way. But maybe that's because I have Asperger's. Truthfully.

 

[Thasmodious]

I'm not angry, but when someone said that I was "voluntarily misleading people", I understood that something was going wrong in this thread. I just gave my opinion about what I saw, I never said I had the truth.

What would you call it, then?

You said in the OP that the 4e books were combat, combat, combat. Then said that there were only 17 pages in the DMG devoted to noncombat encounters - clearly implying to anyone reading your post that had not seen the books, that the other 203 pages of the DMG must be devoted to the "combat, combat, combat" you were going on about. Then you followed it up by flat out denying that there was a section in the PHB on roleplaying, when there is, in fact, a rather long one right at the beginning of the book. I can't help but notice you left that one alone after I quoted from it.

I would call that deliberate, willful, biased, misleading, dishonest... take your pick.

And don't mistake my bluntness for hostility. There is no hostility. I thought the remarks about the roleplaying section being up to shenanigans would have made that clear, but humor doesn't always translate well over these tubes.

 

[Raduin711]

Yesterday I spent two hours with the core books at a friend's place.

The rules are completely different, but the game’s philosophy goes back to AD&D1. The “role playing” part of the game is downgraded compared to 3E, and everything is around combat, combat and more combat (the famous “character roles” are exclusively defined by it). The “noncombat encounters” chapter in the DMG gets only 17 pages and includes puzzles and traps.

Even the artwork is different compared to 3E. Everything is grandiloquent, over-the-top. All depicted characters are fighting or with their weapons (or powers) ready. No one is smiling, relaxed.

Because of the game’s philosophy, I can’t imagine many D&D3 campaign settings being played with D&D4. Again, it’s too combat oriented. For example, it would be very difficult to play Freeport or Midnight with it.

I felt the same thing in the transition between 2e and 3e. And for me, 3rd edition was the death of role-play (it wasn't, obviously.). A diplomacy skill? Scandal. Social interaction was being reduced to die-rolling. Completely. End of story... and we were wrong. Which is what makes me chuckle a little when people describe 3e as the paragon or role-play, and 4e is going to smother it all in crunch.

If anything, I am ecstatic that the rules seem to be getting out of the way of role-play. The less rules inform roleplaying the better the roleplaying.

And as for the art... coming from 2nd where the art was drastically different than 3rd edition art, I can't honestly see it. The green dragon has a horn on his nose. Same diff. About the most significant thing I have seen is how Tieflings have tails now, instead of just Lee Press-On Horns. Plus ca change...

 

[M.L. Martin]

Please read my messages more carefully. I'm saying that D&D only addresses one sub-genre of fantasy, and it should include more, specially if it's "the definitive fantasy RPG". As I said, I want to play Conan, A Game of Thrones, Viriconium, Malazan, Perdido Street Station, The Wheel of Time, The Black Company, Dragonlance, Ravenloft and even Discworld.

What about the two pages on subgenres in the DMG, which address Horror, Intrigue, Mystery, Swashbuckling, Sword & Sorcery, War, and Wuxia campaigns? It's not exactly Fantasy Hero 5th Edition, but it's about two pages more than any other DMG has devoted to the subject.

 

[CrimsonNeko]

Just want to commit really quick....how was 3rd ed NOT like a video game? I mean, for goodness sake, did any of you play neverwinter nights? Excellent showing of breaking down everything in 3rd into video game format. And you know what? Even with everything automated, if you wanted to do more than basic attacking, combat STILL took forever. Sorry to rant a tiny bit, just getting sick of the BS "WTF 4e is Final Fantasy WOWz and dragonkin are weeaboo hahahaha" crud.

I fully agree with the commit by Raduin. 3rd ed hurt RP skills alot. Let the players do the talking, not the dice. It's roleplaying, NOT ROLLplaying. Besides, it isn't like there aren't ANY noncombat skills....look over the rogue and lock. Lots of skills that seem worthless if you look at them from a combat perspective, but are awesome for noncombat. Rituals help alot with this too. Just because talking isn't broken down to a DC 15 roll doesn't mean there aren't noncombat rules. You darn kids and your diplomacy checks....back in my day, we made elaborate houserules for all the noncombat situations....during a blizzard! And we liked it, gosh darn it!

 

[Raduin711]

What about the two pages on subgrenes in the DMG, which address Horror, Intrigue, Mystery, Swashbuckling, Sword & Sorcery, War, and Wuxia campaigns? It's not exactly Fantasy Hero 5th Edition, but it's about two pages more than any other DMG has devoted to the subject.

How exciting. I can't wait to get my DMG.

 

[Thasmodious]

What about the two pages on subgrenes in the DMG, which address Horror, Intrigue, Mystery, Swashbuckling, Sword & Sorcery, War, and Wuxia campaigns? It's not exactly Fantasy Hero 5th Edition, but it's about two pages more than any other DMG has devoted to the subject.

Haven't you even bothered to read this thread? Any examples taken directly from the 4e books that contradicts Joe's assertion that such things are not in the books, aren't really there. We have been victimized by illusions, which have also hidden themselves from view in the PHB.

 

[Raduin711]

Haven't you even bothered to read this thread? Any examples taken directly from the 4e books that contradicts Joe's assertion that such things are not in the books, aren't really there. We have been victimized by illusions, which have also hidden themselves from view in the PHB.

Poo.