D&D 5E What’s So Great About Medieval Europe?

[Nellisir]

Having had coffee in the US, Italy, Costa Rica... all coffee is liquid spite.

We claim the caffeine wakes us up, but really, it is the understanding that the world and our fellow humans despise existence so much as to make this a traditional drink, the first flavor when you roll out of bed, and the implications and threat to our own well being that poses, that really perks up your step in the morning.

I honestly didn't drink coffee EVER until I was in my late 30's. I've learned to tolerate it - I used to travel for work a lot, and it was frequently the only thing available in the morning - but none of it is pleasant.

 

[Jester David]

So no Legend of the five Rings RPG for you then.

Me and mine do not believe in such puerile nonsense.

I'll play in a game of legend of the 5 rings. Spears of the Dawn. And even Qin: the warring States. Because they are great RPG's.

I will enjoy playing characters in those RPG's because I do not allow narrow minded people to dictate to me what RPG's are OK for me to play based on my culture or skin color.

Creating said content usually involves making a fantasy world full of stereotypical representations of people and dated racist caricatures. And people exploiting someone else's history and culture. Which gets extremely problematic when the people doing the exploiting have historically been the colonists or oppressors.
It's perpetuating centuries of abuse, discriminatory laws, and just dick moves like turning people's culture into a Halloween costume.
There were an eff-tonne of problematic elements in the earlier versions of the RPG and card game—created both intentionally and unitentionally by being unaware that certain things were negative stereotypes. Modern publishers have repeatedly had to work to downplay or subvert (often while facing pushback from the community for making the change).
Which is why you need someone from that culture involved in making such a product and how you avoid the more negative aspects of cultural appropriation. Because a bunch of white people raised in North America might not realize they're making a character that is hugely racially insensitive or offensive.

Playing a game set in a fantasy representation of a foreign culture is a grey area. That's often done out of love or appreciation for that culture.
But even then it's possible to do wrong. L5R is famous for people chanting in Japanese at the tournaments, using words while oblivious to the cultural connotations.

Ask yourself this: if you gained a Japanese friend and they expressed an interest in RPGs, would you feel comfortable having them be at your L5R table while you and your white friends ran that game?
I don't need an answer. (I don't even want an answer.) But really think about that.

But I can appropriate the Japanese, Koreans, Pacific Islanders, Africans (including Egypt), India, Greeks, Russians, assorted eastern Europeans, assorted Scandinavian/Nordics etc?
(none of wich I'm culturally tied to other than vikings probably raided my long ago Scottish ancestors at some forgotten point)
Sweet. I've still got enough cultures to bastardize into D&D versions left on the list to last me a life time.

Clearly that list is a short sample of problematic cultures as I cannot include all historical and extant cultures in a single post, and suggesting otherwise is pedantic and arguing in bad faith.

What if I weren't a white North American?
Would I have your blessing to appropriate the Messoamericans/Chinese/Arabians then?

As a general rule, you shouldn't produce content for public consumption based on the culture of a people you do not belong to, with the exception of making product based on the majority culture.

I find it particularly funny that you declare that I, as a white North American, shouldn't be using Messoamerican stuff - but you don't say anything about the Native Americans in what's the USA/Canada.
Well, you kinda do in the previous sentence. But you specifically call me out for the Messoamerican. Sorry, that's on the Spanish in the 1600s.

Can western Europeans/British use Messoamericans/Chinese/Arabians?

Have you heard of this little thing called The Roman Empire?
If I were to avoid borrowing from places they colonized, that became essentially minorities within the Empire, that'd cut out most of what D&D is based on.
Or were you talking about places my culture had colonized?

Sorry, as a white North American since I'm apparently from an inherently evil "colonial culture" & thus the bad guy, what makes you think I give a kobolds crap about borrowing from them?

But if I don't include stuff from other cultures? Then I get branded xenophobic & get crap for it....

You're talking to a White Scottish Canadian raised in Alberta from a family of generations of poor labourers. Scotland had no history of colonization. Scotland imported no slaves. Heck, we spent much of the last millennia being oppressed or fighting for freedom from oppression. And Alberta was founded post-US Civil War. No slaves were used in the construction of the province.
Neither I nor anyone I am related to nor anyone in my cultures were particularly the evil colonialist oppressors.

But none of that matters. Because it's NOT about me. Making it about me would be extremely egocentric and self-centered.
It's about people in a minority or disadvantaged culture. And not taking more away from them.


Now, no one gives a crap what you include in your homegame. You can appropriate and steal from as many cultures as you want and fill your game with all kinds of caricatures for your amusement. Or you can ignore everyone but white people and no one will call you xenophobic. That's not a real problem.
Plus, are you really so starved for inspiration and devoid of imagination that you need to steal cultural cues from a minority culture?
No? Then that's also not a real problem.


The question is about the industry as a whole and why there is a focus on Western Europe. And a big reason now is that it's more than a little bit inappropriate for white people to be making content using other people's cultures as a framework.

This whole thread is basically about how big and crazy and varied Western Medieval culture is and how much can be used for inspiration for thousands of Fantasy games with so many different aspects and focuses and areas.
But the second someone says "yeah, but don't use <culture X>" people get upset. Because despite having 2000 years of history on Europe and Northern Asia to explore and modern history in North America, they want the rest. It suddenly shifts from what they have to what they don't have, like a toddler ignoring all the toys the have because they really want the toy another toddler has.
And all it really takes to avoid the worst aspects of cultural appropriation is hiring a few people from that culture to read the material and go "yeah... this here's some racist BS." It's a low, low bar to clear.

Complaining about cultural appropriation is complaining about handicapped parking stalls. It's about making a huge deal over the three or four parking spots you can't use instead of focusing on the giant parking lot you can use.

 

[Parmandur]

We live in a diverse world full of readily available media. We can expand what’s familiar. We have done. Most young people are familiar with a much broader range of story than medieval

No argument here: I was being descriptive, not prescriptive.

 

[Doug McCrae]

Tolkien's influence generally entered the game by way of the players. It was obviously extremely popular and people wanted to play elves, hobbits and rangers. That's why these elements are present in a game that doesn't otherwise much resemble Tolkien at all.

I don't agree that elves, hobbits and rangers are the only Tolkien derived elements in D&D.

1974 OD&D also has dwarves, orcs, goblins, werebears (Lawful/Neutral, unlike the other Chaotic/Neutral lycanthropes), balrogs, ents, nazgul, "Barrow Wights (per Tolkein)", and "Eagles of Tolkein"[sic]. Most of these had to be renamed after a cease and desist letter in 1977. There are also the spells hold portal, light, wizard lock, knock, lightning bolt and fire ball, and the magic items ring of invisibility and elven cloak and boots.

The Tolkien influence extends back to Chainmail. Its fantasy supplement has dwarves, elves, hobbits, goblins, wights, nazgul, ents, balrogs, werebears, Tolkien-style trolls (as well as Poul Anderson-style "True Trolls") and "Orcs of the (Red) Eye", "Orcs of the White Hand", "Orcs of Mordor" and "Isengarders" (another type of orc). The dragon is "the great Red Dragon (Draco Conflagratio, or Draco Horribilis) which is typified in Tolkien's THE HOBBIT". Spells include fire ball, lightning bolt, and wizard light.

Three fantasy authors are named in the text. Poul Anderson and Robert E Howard are each mentioned once, whereas Tolkien appears three times.

Chainmail was based on a Lord of the Rings wargame created by Leonard Patt.

Apart from the ranger, post-1974 Tolkien elements include half-orcs, half-elves, mithril, wargs, the spell ventriloquism, and destruction of artefacts. The first listed method of artefact destruction in the 1e AD&D DMG is to "Melt it down in the fiery furnace, pit, mountain, forge, crucible or kiln in which it was created."

In terms of broader themes, the D&D adventuring party closely resembles the Company of the Ring in its size, racial composition, and presence of both magical and non-magical characters. The 'racial geography' of D&D worlds also derives from Tolkien – elves in the forest, dwarves/orcs/goblins in the caves/mountains.

It might be said that the typical PC motivation more closely resembles that of Conan, Cugel the Clever or Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser than the protagonists in The Lord of the Rings. But equally it might be said to resemble that of the protagonists in The Hobbit.

 

[Reynard]

I don't agree that elves, hobbits and rangers are the only Tolkien derived elements in D&D.

That's good because I did not say that. All I said was that Gygax preferred the American pulp authors to Tolkien and the Tolkien elements came in because fantasy fans of the time demanded it. What you posted doesn't dispute that.

 

[Fenris-77]

LotR content with Conan style action. That pretty much sums it up. No need to argue about primacy.

 

[Nellisir]

Complaining about cultural appropriation is complaining about handicapped parking stalls. It's about making a huge deal over the three or four parking spots you can't use instead of focusing on the giant parking lot you can use.

You just reduced 9/10ths of the world to "three or four parking spots" in a "giant parking lot" of Western European white culture. I'm...speechless.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

That's good because I did not say that. All I said was that Gygax preferred the American pulp authors to Tolkien and the Tolkien elements came in because fantasy fans of the time demanded it. What you posted doesn't dispute that.

The other Tolkien elements are in from the beginning, so they can’t be there because fans demanded it.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

The point is most people have heard of a count and they're comfortable with it even if they're not intimately familiar with its incarnation in every setting.



There's still going to be a learning curve and it's going to require some effort to buy into it in a way that something familiar will not. If we're talking about published settings that means more work on the part of the GM and player base which might have an impact on sales. I love a lot of non-European settings like Dark Sun, Legend of the Five Rings, and Al-Qadim, but, man, it can really be tough getting players to switch mindsets with a game like L5R.

But you have a valid point. I think one of the reasons D&D is so popular is because it really doesn't go too far out into the weeds so far as medieval/early modern Europe is concerned. Which might explain partially why games like HarnMaster or Pendragon aren't as popular.

D&D was also very popular when it used to get quite in the weeds about pretty much everything it’s gaze fell upon, to be fair.

 

[Fenris-77]

D&D was also very popular when it used to get quite in the weeds about pretty much everything it’s gaze fell upon, to be fair.

TSR was the Oprah of cultural appropriation. I'll appropriate your culture, and your culture. Appropriation for everybody!