D&D 5E What’s So Great About Medieval Europe?

[Minigiant]

It's probably to niche.

Social medias also painted them into a corner. Just easier to not make it.

I remember explaing D&D to a group of Polynesians in 1997 in an army barracks. Dragon had Polynesian weapons in it.

They thought that was cool. These days no Dragon and someone will complain.

Not really.
Mount and Blade Bannerlord has 6 diverse unit factions of various real Earth nonEuropean inspirations. Warhammer Fantasy and Age of Sigmar has several factions of various real nonEuropean Earth inspiration. Blizzard expanded their universes with more factions of nonEuropean influences.

Variety is $MONEY$

What you can't do is ditch the past or half-donkey the variety.
D&D needs to get on the train or its book sales will drop again. There are only so many Matt Mercers.

 

[Zardnaar]

Reasons why we might prefer fiction that has a pre-modern setting:

1) Muscle-powered weaponry is more heroic than guns.
2) The reduced power of the state.

Probably more with what you grew up with.

You can change it a bit such as the knight can go rescue the prince if she wants but if ye get away from ye olde medieval Europe it leaves you open to not D&D.

Not saying you can't do it but you can't do it as the default.

These days it's just easier to not go there.

 

[Minigiant]

1) Muscle-powered weaponry is more heroic than guns.

Wot!
Gunz are Best for dragon huntin'

 

[Zardnaar]

Not really.
Mount and Blade Bannerlord has 6 diverse unit factions of various real Earth nonEuropean inspirations. Warhammer Fantasy and Age of Sigmar has several factions of various real nonEuropean Earth inspiration. Blizzard expanded their universes with more factions of nonEuropean influences.

Variety is $MONEY$

What you can't do is ditch the past or half-donkey the variety.
D&D needs to get on the train or its book sales will drop again. There are only so many Matt Mercers.

Different genres they're not D&D.

The available evidence we have if they double down on less variety they do better.

D&D's good at being D&D, it's not good at doing everything.

 

[TheSword]

And let's not underestimate the danger of unintentional racism and offensive stereotyping. There's nothing quite so cringe inducing as a table full of modern white middle class Americans pretending to be medieval Japanese warriors and priests. (Just an example of course, but one of the most common to see at a con.)

That isn’t a problem in a closed group of people in their own home, but I get that it makes publishing and sharing that info (streaming etc harder).

Legend of the Five Rings has released dozens and dozens of rpg products over 25+ years and is on its 5th edition. It can be done, and can be popular. We shouldn’t characterize that setting by the oriental adventures book and three published modules.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Why are we still stuck in this era?

I mean, not that I’ve ever seen a fantasy work that accurately portrayed the Middle Ages, regular cleaning/bathing rituals, advanced is art, music, and sciences, and all, but still, why? What is so interesting about it? There are most of 20k years to draw upon for roleplaying inspiration before the advent of the cannon, across the globe.

What is so interesting about the (very much pseudo) medieval tableaux that keeps the community stuck at that well?

I don't think there's anything particularly great about it, and it's notable that actually relatively little pre-D&D fantasy fiction was set in medieval-Europe analogues.

If you look at Conan, that's really a version of the ancient world, not the middle ages. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser has more of a 500 BC or 600 AD vibe than an 1100 AD one, and more of a Byzantium or even Babylon vibe than a London one. It's a mish-mash, but it's not "medieval Europe". Lord of the Rings has a lot of early-medieval stuff going on, but it's still not really "medieval Europe" (it is a bit closer). Michael Moorcock's stuff is usually ancient world-styled, in different ways, with only Von Bek (which I think was quite influential) really being "medieval Europe" (albeit really, really late medieval/renaissance/early modern) or outright steampunk-before-steampunk. Vance is far future post-apocalypse and definitely not medieval Europe. Lord Dunsany's fairytale stuff is a bit more medieval, but still, not really, to my mind. Lovecraft and his imitators obviously aren't, nor is Zelazny.

But it seems like the wargame(s) that lead to early D&D were centered on medieval warfare concepts, that expanded out into fantasy.

A lot of very early stuff seems to have a non-medieval feel, a sort of ancient world or fantasy + science deal (Empire of the Petal Throne, 1975, was very non-medieval though I guess technically not D&D), but I think it's Greyhawk and similar which pushes towards a much more medieval take, with it's obsession with heraldry, knights, and so on. And more and more medieval stuff gets added, and non-medieval stuff gets shoved out as time goes on. Because I think that's the stuff people are familiar with - I get the feeling there were a lot more books on medieval history, medieval warfare, medieval weaponry and so on, on the shelves of the people developing D&D, than ancient world or non-Western stuff (which is actually kind unusual in the period, maybe). I mean, when you're making distinctions between a dozen ridiculously specialized polearms (most of which I love but come on...) but aren't including non-Western weapons, that's a clear sign of medieval influence being strong on the rules, rather than the broader fantasy influence of earlier.

So through the '80s this seems to get stronger and stronger, and by 1989, we see the 2E PHB, and there's no Barbarian, and no barbarian-style artwork, and tons and tons of ultra-medieval stuff, and virtually all the artwork depicts a Western-medieval fantasy world, and Forgotten Realm is just that. Admittedly there is still some deviance - the first setting for 2E, AFAIK, is Taladas (Time of the Dragon), which is not Western-medieval, it's Dark Ages Eurasia (ERE and WRE equivalents) + lots of weird crazy stuff (steampunk non-moron gnomes, Dune-esque sailors on a sea of glass, tons of Pacific Islander-related stuff). That said I think the initial 2E era is the peak of "medieval-ness" in D&D. As soon as more material comes out, it starts to slide away from that.

So I don't think that there was ever a conscious design decision, with D&D, that it is "medieval europe" primarily. I think it's an accident of the interests of the main designers and writers in the 1970s and 1980s, and had a few people had different interests, we might have seen a rather different take (probably more ancient world-y, less medieval), which would in turn have influenced fantasy writing, computer games, and so on.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't think there's anything particularly great about it, and it's notable that actually relatively little pre-D&D fantasy fiction was set in medieval-Europe analogues.

If you look at Conan, that's really a version of the ancient world, not the middle ages. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser has more of a 500 BC or 600 AD vibe than an 1100 AD one, and more of a Byzantium or even Babylon vibe than a London one. It's a mish-mash, but it's not "medieval Europe". Lord of the Rings has a lot of early-medieval stuff going on, but it's still not really "medieval Europe" (it is a bit closer). Michael Moorcock's stuff is usually ancient world-styled, in different ways, with only Von Bek (which I think was quite influential) really being "medieval Europe" (albeit really, really late medieval/renaissance/early modern) or outright steampunk-before-steampunk. Vance is far future post-apocalypse and definitely not medieval Europe. Lord Dunsany's fairytale stuff is a bit more medieval, but still, not really, to my mind. Lovecraft and his imitators obviously aren't, nor is Zelazny.

But it seems like the wargame(s) that lead to early D&D were centered on medieval warfare concepts, that expanded out into fantasy.

A lot of very early stuff seems to have a non-medieval feel, a sort of ancient world or fantasy + science deal (Empire of the Petal Throne, 1975, was very non-medieval though I guess technically not D&D), but I think it's Greyhawk and similar which pushes towards a much more medieval take, with it's obsession with heraldry, knights, and so on. And more and more medieval stuff gets added, and non-medieval stuff gets shoved out as time goes on. Because I think that's the stuff people are familiar with - I get the feeling there were a lot more books on medieval history, medieval warfare, medieval weaponry and so on, on the shelves of the people developing D&D, than ancient world or non-Western stuff (which is actually kind unusual in the period, maybe). I mean, when you're making distinctions between a dozen ridiculously specialized polearms (most of which I love but come on...) but aren't including non-Western weapons, that's a clear sign of medieval influence being strong on the rules, rather than the broader fantasy influence of earlier.

So through the '80s this seems to get stronger and stronger, and by 1989, we see the 2E PHB, and there's no Barbarian, and no barbarian-style artwork, and tons and tons of ultra-medieval stuff, and virtually all the artwork depicts a Western-medieval fantasy world, and Forgotten Realm is just that. Admittedly there is still some deviance - the first setting for 2E, AFAIK, is Taladas (Time of the Dragon), which is not Western-medieval, it's Dark Ages Eurasia (ERE and WRE equivalents) + lots of weird crazy stuff (steampunk non-moron gnomes, Dune-esque sailors on a sea of glass, tons of Pacific Islander-related stuff). That said I think the initial 2E era is the peak of "medieval-ness" in D&D. As soon as more material comes out, it starts to slide away from that.

So I don't think that there was ever a conscious design decision, with D&D, that it is "medieval europe" primarily. I think it's an accident of the interests of the main designers and writers in the 1970s and 1980s, and had a few people had different interests, we might have seen a rather different take (probably more ancient world-y, less medieval), which would in turn have influenced fantasy writing, computer games, and so on.

D&D was Eurocentric from the get go. Not 100% there's all sorts of influences there.

It was 14th century for the most part with dark ages vibe. Paladin holy knight, cleric Odo, Ranger Aragorn etc. Greek and Roman as well with a smidge on the ancient world.

 

[Minigiant]

Different genres they're not D&D.

The available evidence we have if they double down on less variety they do better.

Because they half-donkey it.
There is plently of evidence that D&Dfans like more options.
I'm not saying put it in a PHB.

But I'm 10000% sure that if WOTC made quality books with rules for warrior, spellcasters, monsters, and gear inspired by cultures all over the world, it would sell like hotcakes.

 

[Zardnaar]

Because they half-donkey it.
There is plently of evidence that D&Dfans like more options.
I'm not saying put it in a PHB.

But I'm 10000% sure that if WOTC made quality books with rules for warrior, spellcasters, monsters, and gear inspired by cultures all over the world, it would sell like hotcakes.

It won't. They want books that sell 100k+.

Didn't sell that well in 2E, doesn't sell that well for 3pp.

Midgard got 5E treatment, Southland did not. Well it got a conversion PDF not nice hardcover.

Stronghold book Kickstarter did well. Go build a castle hmmnn.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Well, it’s my cultural history. Other cultural histories are available. It’s not better than them, but it’s pretty awesome (and also awful, in its realism, but we’re creating fictional fantasy worlds).

I’m not really up for role playing “regular cleaning/bathing rituals” though, sorry. Not my bag.

Id like to point something out about this too. If the world was PERFECTLY like the medieval era is would actually be unrealistic even if that is what it was based on provided the only thing you have added is magic. We know that wealthier individuals had higher hygeine (normal for any society). We also know that upper classes and wealthier individuals were more likely to be the mystical elite.

Now apply REAL magic to this. People with magical talent are just obviously more likely to make their way into upper classes. Whats the most common cantrip of them all? Thats right. Prestidigitation. So one immediate change would be that the wealthy would actually bath less often than the poor anyway because prestidigitation can do a better job than bathing even in our age can typically do. Its magically perfect. Dont know how to do it yourself? Most likely in such a society the rich would be able to afford a magic item as minor as a once a day prestidigitation cheaper long term than soap. And your magic comunity probably has common courtesy ethic develop in their culture that shapes social interaction such that every time one of your buddies who knows some magic shakes someone's hand they are already subconsciously casting prestidigitation every time they do that seeing as cantrips are as simple as a gesture.

With all the things that are an effect of the ideas in d&d, that arent even supposed to be related to the time period in the first place, effecting things on a constant basis, some things are just obviously going to be very different.

Some times the tech or cultural differences between d&d regions and the irl geographic/chronological regions they represent just very obviously are the result of sloppy history or inacurate assumptions thereof, but in a lot of cases is just seems intuitive that there would be differences.

I hope that this was some food for thought. Have a good day/night or whatever it is for you.