D&D 5E What’s So Great About Medieval Europe?

[Ruin Explorer]

D&D was Eurocentric from the get go. Not 100% there's all sorts of influences there.

It was 14th century for the most part with dark ages vibe. Paladin holy knight, cleric Odo, Ranger Aragorn etc. Greek and Roman as well with a smidge on the ancient world.

You're talking about AD&D, not D&D, when mentioning that stuff. I'm talking about D&D way back before that. The initial influences and early stuff doesn't include or focus on that. By AD&D 1E, it's leaning much more medieval, and it keeps heading that way throughout the 1980s, as Greyhawk, Dragonlance and the FR all become the main published settings (and are all somewhat medieval).

 

[Zardnaar]

You're talking about AD&D, not D&D, when mentioning that stuff. I'm talking about D&D way back before that. The initial influences and early stuff doesn't include or focus on that. By AD&D 1E, it's leaning much more medieval, and it keeps heading that way throughout the 1980s, as Greyhawk, Dragonlance and the FR all become the main published settings (and are all somewhat medieval).

I was talking about OD&D. Cleric was based off Van Helsing/Odo

 

[Reynard]

If this thread has done anything it has exposed the deep lack of understanding the literary influences on D&D. You all need to go and read your Appendix N again.

Gygax was a Howard, Lieber and CA Smith fan more than he was a Tolkien fan. There is a reason D&D adventures more closely resemble Conan stories than others.

Tolkien's influence generally entered the game by way of the players. It was obviously extremely popular and people wanted to play elves, hobbits and rangers. That's why these elements are present in a game that doesn't otherwise much resemble Tolkien at all.

Of course there were tons of other influences over the years and the many, many writers and artists and editors brought their own preferences and perspectives into the game, but the early literary influences were mostly sword and sorcery pulp fiction.

Also someone upthread suggested Conan's world was iron age. That's not true. It was set in an era of fictional prehistory but only as a conceit. Individual nations and regions were modeled on all kinds of historical times and places.

 

[Minigiant]

It won't. They want books that sell 100k+.

Didn't sell that well in 2E, doesn't sell that well for 3pp.

Midgard got 5E treatment, Southland's did not.

It will.
the 2e books were terrible. Thats the problem.

D&D has a special problem for decades. It has designers who don't care about things they design since they personally don't want to play them. It was a big problem in gaming altogether.

But it is changing. Faster in video gaming. Video game devs now know that quality new ideas sell big. Tabletop is lagging behind.

African, Asian, and American inspirations was always part of D&D.
Implementation was often terrible though.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Tolkien.
Robert E. Howard
Robin Hood
King Arthur

Literally only Robin Hood of those is solidly "medieval Europe" - Robin Hood. Arthur is a bit more complex and you could claim it as "medieval Europe".

REH is definitely not even arguably "medieval Europe". He's absolutely solidly ancient world.

Tolkien is solidly fantasy, and whilst very Western, is not very medieval.

I was talking about OD&D.

Then you're wrong and your examples make little sense. Not sure what else there is to say.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Also someone upthread suggested Conan's world was iron age. That's not true. It was set in an era of fictional prehistory but only as a conceit. Individual nations and regions were modeled on all kinds of historical times and places.

The vast majority of them are modelled on Iron Age, Bronze Age, prehistoric, or other non-medieval (and sometimes non-Western) nations/regions. I can only offhand think of one that could be argued to be "medieval Europe".

 

[Son of the Serpent]

I don't think there's anything particularly great about it, and it's notable that actually relatively little pre-D&D fantasy fiction was set in medieval-Europe analogues.

If you look at Conan, that's really a version of the ancient world, not the middle ages. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser has more of a 500 BC or 600 AD vibe than an 1100 AD one, and more of a Byzantium or even Babylon vibe than a London one. It's a mish-mash, but it's not "medieval Europe". Lord of the Rings has a lot of early-medieval stuff going on, but it's still not really "medieval Europe" (it is a bit closer). Michael Moorcock's stuff is usually ancient world-styled, in different ways, with only Von Bek (which I think was quite influential) really being "medieval Europe" (albeit really, really late medieval/renaissance/early modern) or outright steampunk-before-steampunk. Vance is far future post-apocalypse and definitely not medieval Europe. Lord Dunsany's fairytale stuff is a bit more medieval, but still, not really, to my mind. Lovecraft and his imitators obviously aren't, nor is Zelazny.

But it seems like the wargame(s) that lead to early D&D were centered on medieval warfare concepts, that expanded out into fantasy.

A lot of very early stuff seems to have a non-medieval feel, a sort of ancient world or fantasy + science deal (Empire of the Petal Throne, 1975, was very non-medieval though I guess technically not D&D), but I think it's Greyhawk and similar which pushes towards a much more medieval take, with it's obsession with heraldry, knights, and so on. And more and more medieval stuff gets added, and non-medieval stuff gets shoved out as time goes on. Because I think that's the stuff people are familiar with - I get the feeling there were a lot more books on medieval history, medieval warfare, medieval weaponry and so on, on the shelves of the people developing D&D, than ancient world or non-Western stuff (which is actually kind unusual in the period, maybe). I mean, when you're making distinctions between a dozen ridiculously specialized polearms (most of which I love but come on...) but aren't including non-Western weapons, that's a clear sign of medieval influence being strong on the rules, rather than the broader fantasy influence of earlier.

So through the '80s this seems to get stronger and stronger, and by 1989, we see the 2E PHB, and there's no Barbarian, and no barbarian-style artwork, and tons and tons of ultra-medieval stuff, and virtually all the artwork depicts a Western-medieval fantasy world, and Forgotten Realm is just that. Admittedly there is still some deviance - the first setting for 2E, AFAIK, is Taladas (Time of the Dragon), which is not Western-medieval, it's Dark Ages Eurasia (ERE and WRE equivalents) + lots of weird crazy stuff (steampunk non-moron gnomes, Dune-esque sailors on a sea of glass, tons of Pacific Islander-related stuff). That said I think the initial 2E era is the peak of "medieval-ness" in D&D. As soon as more material comes out, it starts to slide away from that.

So I don't think that there was ever a conscious design decision, with D&D, that it is "medieval europe" primarily. I think it's an accident of the interests of the main designers and writers in the 1970s and 1980s, and had a few people had different interests, we might have seen a rather different take (probably more ancient world-y, less medieval), which would in turn have influenced fantasy writing, computer games, and so on.

When i run campaigns the ancient world is my favorite. I do a mixture, with some regions being a bit less ancient. Most truly resemble ancient though. I particularly enjoy ancient europe. Actually started doing this before i ever watched a conan movie. Then i watched one and i was like "huh. Thats super different from most of what i have thought up, but its a bit similar to one of my regions in particular. Why is he nearly naked?" Looking back it was a pretty funny moment.

 

[Zardnaar]

It will.
the 2e books were terrible. Thats the problem.

D&D has a special problem for decades. It has designers who don't care about things they design since they personally don't want to play them. It was a big problem in gaming altogether.

But it is changing. Faster in video gaming. Video game devs now know that quality new ideas sell big. Tabletop is lagging behind.

African, Asian, and American inspirations was always part of D&D.
Implementation was often terrible though.

Other companies have tried it and did a good job.

They've never had the impact of D&D.

Only ever RPG to come close was Vampire. Also Eurocentric.

They've painted themselves into a corner.

1. They want high volume sales of smaller number if books.

2. Core audience.

By 2 they've managed to bring more females into the game. The target audience is mostly middle class or better nerds of European descent.

They've targeted that group but it makes D&D less appealing to other cultures. Even if they make it you're gonna get accused if cultural appropriation so they don't make it.

 

[Zardnaar]

Literally only Robin Hood of those is solidly "medieval Europe" - Robin Hood. Arthur is a bit more complex and you could claim it as "medieval Europe".

REH is definitely not even arguably "medieval Europe". He's absolutely solidly ancient world.

Tolkien is solidly fantasy, and whilst very Western, is not very medieval.



Then you're wrong and your examples make little sense. Not sure what else there is to say.

I own OD&D, want me to post photos of the art?

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Mystara (Know World), the BECMI world, is multi-national and multi-cultural. Same for Greyhawk.

If you read attentively the human race section in the 5e PHB you will see the multi-cultural world of the FR. The book starts with a Berber style fighter on page !

No idea why players mostly play in European centered countries. I did an Arabian night desert campaign once. It was very interesting. Theros is Greek centred and seems to by selling well.

thay is a weird mix of irl regional influence. In some ways it looks middle eastern. In some ways it looks vaguely western european. In some ways it looks slightly asiatic. Id say it slightly leans toward the middle eastern side of Mediterranean for the most part. But the literal geography definitely does not. Thay is weird.