D&D 5E What’s So Great About Medieval Europe?

[Ruin Explorer]

Also worth noting that an awful lot of actual play (to judge from accounts everywhere, from streaming/YouTube/podcasts etc.), the vast majority of people playing D&D are not playing "medieval Europe".

They're playing something which is much closer to 1600s-1800s Europe (and beyond) without guns. Often the setting is entirely fantastical.

 

[Morrus]

Gygax was a Howard, Lieber and CA Smith fan more than he was a Tolkien fan.

That's certainly what he said after the Tolkiens came after him for the hobbits, ents, balrogs etc. and he had to rename them.

 

[Zardnaar]

Also worth noting that an awful lot of actual play (to judge from accounts everywhere, from streaming/YouTube/podcasts etc.), the vast majority of people playing D&D are not playing "medieval Europe".

They're playing something which is much closer to 1600s-1800s Europe (and beyond) without guns. Often the setting is entirely fantastical.

Early D&D was a lot more medieval. They're still playing Eurocentric but they wouldn't be playing at all without early D&D.

Most people also don't play like YouTube groups I wouldn't read to much into it.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Also worth noting that an awful lot of actual play (to judge from accounts everywhere, from streaming/YouTube/podcasts etc.), the vast majority of people playing D&D are not playing "medieval Europe".

They're playing something which is much closer to 1600s-1800s Europe (and beyond) without guns. Often the setting is entirely fantastical.

Ive been seeing people play a lot more and more lately with excessively modern weapons tbh while not actually playing full modern d&d and it kinda rubs me the wrong way. The majority dont use guns but ive been seeing a pretty big uptick in gun usage.

 

[Minigiant]

Other companies have tried it and did a good job.

They've never had the impact of D&D.

Only ever RPG to come close was Vampire. Also Eurocentric.

They've painted themselves into a corner.

1. They want high volume sales of smaller number if books.

2. Core audience.

By 2 they've managed to bring more females into the game. The target audience is mostly middle class or better nerds of European descent.

They've targeted that group but it makes D&D less appealing to other cultures. Even if they make it you're gonna get accused if cultural appropriation so they don't make it.

Vampire has become less and less Eurocentric by the book.
The European kindred are a mess.
It's all US, Africa, and Asia.

Almost every popular RPG, video game or tabletop, is adding more nonEuropean and nonMedieval stuff by the book. The money is in broad archetypes.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

That's certainly what he said after the Tolkiens came after him for the hobbits, ents, balrogs etc. and he had to rename them.

I believe him, because he's normally an inconsistent fellow, but has been consistent with that, and it would have no legal bearing if he "liked" that stuff or not.

Early D&D was a lot more medieval. They're still playing Eurocentric but they wouldn't be playing at all without early D&D.

Yeah, you keep saying this, but you're ignoring that very early on, the influences weren't purely medieval, and early stuff, including OD&D, feels far less medieval than AD&D 1E and 2E. There's a progress towards medieval over the later 1970s and 1980s that you're ignoring and pretending was always the core.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Vampire has become less and less Eurocentric by the book.

I would argue it's never been Eurocentric - it's always been US-centric, with Europe as this sort of "looming presence" (which has indeed declined over the years), which is very much in keeping with a lot of modern vampire stuff.

None of the other World of Darkness books is Eurocentric either - Werewolf is violently US-centric, in fact.

What about other big RPGs? Shadowrun is US-centric, but very "worldwide", and always with a strong Japanese influence. CP2020 is similar, and indeed barely acknowledges Europe exists beyond the Eurodollar being the currency. Earthdawn was a pure fantasy world. HERO/Champions was US-centric. GURPS was deliberately world-wide. Palladium stuff tends to be US-centric and then go world-wide, and so on.

 

[Zardnaar]

I believe him, because he's normally an inconsistent fellow, but has been consistent with that, and it would have no legal bearing if he "liked" that stuff or not.



Yeah, you keep saying this, but you're ignoring that very early on, the influences weren't purely medieval, and early stuff, including OD&D, feels far less medieval than AD&D 1E and 2E. There's a progress towards medieval over the later 1970s and 1980s that you're ignoring and pretending was always the core.

I said earlier it wasn't 100% Europe but it's Eurocentric. There's a difference. Assassin and Monk for example.

Newer players are playing differently if course but they didn't grow up with ye olde Disney cartoons or Grimm's brothers and Weddings etc.

There's almost 8 billion people in this planet, D&D isn't going to appeal to 5-6 billion if them no matter what WotC does.

It's only going to appeal to a niche slice mostly America/Anglosphere/Western Europe.

 

[Son of the Serpent]

Other companies have tried it and did a good job.

They've never had the impact of D&D.

Only ever RPG to come close was Vampire. Also Eurocentric.

They've painted themselves into a corner.

1. They want high volume sales of smaller number if books.

2. Core audience.

By 2 they've managed to bring more females into the game. The target audience is mostly middle class or better nerds of European descent.

They've targeted that group but it makes D&D less appealing to other cultures. Even if they make it you're gonna get accused if cultural appropriation so they don't make it.

I think cultural appropriation will not be a long term business worry. It hasnt been for the majority of human history and as best as i can tell championing against cultural appropriation actually has a repulsing effect on most people. Interedtingly the less european a country ia the more true that is. And in asian countries most people actually actively like it when foreigners apripruate their culture. The residents of asian countries that don't fit this trend are actually a fairly extreme minority (in most asian countries). They tend to view what the west calls cultural appropriation as cultural APPRECIATION/enjoyment/admiration/enthusiasm.

This term will eventually fall out of popularity as a negative criticism.

 

[Shiroiken]

Handling any kind of culture has a real-life analog can cause PR issues due to the current hyper PC culture. While some existing settings have using real-world analogs, these were mostly done before the internet outrage could occur. If WotC were to produce Kara-Tur, Mazteca, or Al-Qadim today, there would instant outrage of "culture appropriation" and "mis-characterization of the culture," no matter how they did it. Instead WotC (and 3rd party products) create larger settings that can include some analogs, so long as they either keep it very vague or detailed enough to differ from the analog.