D&D 3E/3.5 What are the main changes from 3.5 to Pathfinder?

SlyDoubt

First Post
... I don't think they're a crushing disappointment, either.

I just think it's a spot where they could have fixed a 3.5 issue, but didn't, and then proceeded to patch over it in a pretty inelegant fashion.

EDIT: They've also left in the "It takes three feats to be a decent archer" rules (Point Blank, Precise, Rapid). This could've been handled better, too.

How is that different than power attack and cleave + whatever. Or combat expertise, improved x, improved y. Ranged weapons are plenty good but if you want to focus on them you need to take feats. Same with melee.

Some get rid of penalties some add bonuses/abilities. How is this drastically different other than just spinning it to sound different? A decent melee fighter needs to take improved disarm if he ever wants to really use it consistently just like an archer needs precise shot to really be consistent with a bow.

As for the dexterity based melee, also don't see it as an issue. If you are a more power gamey type of player or DM then ok. I'm sure there are certain issues that don't allow characters to be as well optimized (across the entire system). For me this just isn't an issue, not even remotely. I never thought it needed fixing from 3.5.

Maybe just some different feat support would be cool but i'm sure that exists in one of the scads of 3.5 splatbooks and something we'll see in ultimate combat anyway.
 

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Jeff Wilder

First Post
Honestly, my only beef with PFRPG is that I feel they borked the skill consolidation.

They clearly made skill consolidation choices based on balancing three factors: fun, realism, and play balance (i.e., utility in play). The problem is that the weighing seems to have varied greatly from instance to instance, so ...

Rogues end up with all of the super-skills: Stealth, Perception, Acrobatics, and so on. All skills where two or more 3.5 skills have been rolled into one PFRPG skill. And of course rogues still have 8+ skill points.

Fighters, on the other hand, still have the athletic skills, nigh useless beyond the low-to-mid-levels as separate skills, and jumping (which was folded into Acrobatics) isn't even a class skill for them! And, of course, fighters still only have 2 skill points.

I'm sure that other people have issues with the way PFRPG did stuff (e.g., the base DC for CMB checks or whatever), but from my perspective skill-consolidation is the only area of the rules where they just plain fell down on the job.

And that's not a slam. I think it's extraordinarily impressive that a world-champion bitcher like myself only has one complaint about a 1000-page rules revision.
 

How is that different than power attack and cleave + whatever. Or combat expertise, improved x, improved y. Ranged weapons are plenty good but if you want to focus on them you need to take feats. Same with melee.

Because *every* archer takes the same three starting feats. The difference in variability in low-level choices between melee-focused characters and ranged-focused characters is stark.

Just talking about the first two feats you take, melee combatants can go with (and be reasonably good at what they're doing):

  • Power Attack / Cleave, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, or Improved Sunder
  • Combat Expertise / Improved Disarm, Feint, or Trip
  • Improved Shield Bash / Shield Focus
  • Combat Reflexes / Stand Still
  • Improved Unarmed Strike / Deflect Arrows, Improved Grapple, or Scorpion Style
  • Mounted Combat / Ride-By Attack or Trample
  • Multiple teamwork feats from APG

(And these are just paired feats; you can certainly mix-and-match from multiple columns, taking, for instance, Shield Focus and Power Attack like my wife's current character.)

There's lots and lots of options for melee fighters (not shown: TWF, which can be half-blended with either of the above combinations, or forms another combination on its own w/ TWD or Double Slice). There's, essentially, 1 for archers (not including Rapid Reload for crossbow users).

Dex-based melee is still kludgy because, now, it takes 2 feats to be, generally speaking, still worse than your Strength-focused friend, instead of the 1 feat it took in 3.5. By not letting Weapon Finesse apply to your CMB by default, they've added in another feat to the overall feat-tax required to play a Dex-based melee character.
 

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)
Because *every* archer takes the same three starting feats. The difference in variability in low-level choices between melee-focused characters and ranged-focused characters is stark.

<snip>

Dex-based melee is still kludgy because, now, it takes 2 feats to be, generally speaking, still worse than your Strength-focused friend, instead of the 1 feat it took in 3.5. By not letting Weapon Finesse apply to your CMB by default, they've added in another feat to the overall feat-tax required to play a Dex-based melee character.

Having thought about it, I'm totally OK with both of those things.

If archery takes a little more investment to get so much out of it, I think the ability to more easily get full attacks and hand out a lot of damage relatively safely makes up for it.

I'm also OK with it taking a feat or two for a Dex-based fighter to get close to the strength-based fighter's ability. Dexterity has so many other valuable adventuring uses for skills, Reflex saves, AC, initiative, and missile attacks that without extra costs to make it as useful for melee attacks as well, the stat would be too dominant.
 

If archery takes a little more investment to get so much out of it, I think the ability to more easily get full attacks and hand out a lot of damage relatively safely makes up for it.

That's missing my point. It's perfectly fine that, if you want to be good at something, you should sink feats into being good at it.

The issue is that *every* archer ends up taking the *same* feats in largely the same order. It's not an issue of power, but an issue of over-standardization.

I'm also OK with it taking a feat or two for a Dex-based fighter to get close to the strength-based fighter's ability. Dexterity has so many other valuable adventuring uses for skills, Reflex saves, AC, initiative, and missile attacks that without extra costs to make it as useful for melee attacks as well, the stat would be too dominant.

Obviously, I disagree that paying two feats to still be worse off than if you'd just avoided the issue entirely is a good trade-off.* You could, instead, take those two feats you saved and spend them on Lightning Reflexes and Improved Lightning Reflexes, and have a pretty darn good Reflex save, in addition to rolling better damage (EDIT: both because of your Strength bonus, and because you'll generally be using a better base-damage weapon [LS vs. rapier / shortsword, etc.]).

Your AC will, generally, end up about the same going Strength over Dex (you'll have a worse Touch AC, but a better FF, with Armor + Dex being roughly equivalent across armor types).

You'd be missing out on ability bonuses to Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth. To the dedicated melee combatant's point of view, Acrobatics is really the only killer app, here (and possibly Ride, if you're a Cavalier type). In exchange, you're picking up bonuses in Climb and Swim (which, you know, ... eh ...). So that's pretty much a win for the Dex-based guy, especially given your ACPs will make most of the Dex skills undoable routinely as a Str-based character.

The Dex-based guy will have better ranged attack bonuses - but, if a bow-user, will do less damage per hit (assuming tailored composite bows or thrown weapons). To make ideal use of this advantage, however, you'll further need to spend the "archer feat tax," elsewise we're just comparing the initial attack before melee combat is joined, and a slight advantage here for the Dex-based guy does not outweigh the long-term advantage of the Strength-based guy over the course of a longer fight.

Additionally, we're discussing the way in which the PF rules handle Dex-based melee fighters; pointing out that they make great archers is, at best, a minor point, since if I wanted to play an archer, I'd be playing an archer. :)

[EDIT: In summation, in 3.5 you paid 1 feat to be slightly behind your Strength-based counterpart. In Pathfinder, the same 1 feat gets you much less closer to your Str-based counterpart, and you have to spend 2 feats to be more-or-less where you would have been in 3.5.]

I realize that I'm probably not going to convince anyone of anything, here, and that we're getting a bit far afield from the OP's question, so perhaps this can be the end of it, and we can move on to other things?

* Note - I'm not saying that it's an awful trade-off, merely that it isn't fantastic, and that I wish it were better.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
The issue is that *every* archer ends up taking the *same* feats in largely the same order. It's not an issue of power, but an issue of over-standardization.

...Coupled with an overall lack of options. There are what, only another 2 or 3 "archery" feats out there? Rapid Shot. Mounted Archery. Manyshot. Am I missing any? While I agree that its somewhat disappointing, I'm also somewhat at a loss to see where else ranged combat feats could go.

OTOH, there is the side benefit that someone who takes those first 3 is definitely good enough at archery...and can then spend valuable feats on other aspects of building up their character. An archer/spellcaster who gains the benefit of those feats for his archery and spells could, for instance, build up his arsenal of spells that benefit from those feats by taking something like Reach Spell, and/or Crafting feats that lets him create wands & staves that produce spells that benefit from those feats.

Or a martial PC could take those 3 feats and still be pretty proficient with his chosen style of melee combat.
 

...Coupled with an overall lack of options. There are what, only another 2 or 3 "archery" feats out there? Rapid Shot. Mounted Archery. Manyshot. Am I missing any? While I agree that its somewhat disappointing, I'm also somewhat at a loss to see where else ranged combat feats could go.

I think you missed the ranged Power Attack variant feat from the core rulebook, but I forget the name.

The APG adds a couple, with Point Blank Master, Disrupting Shot, Elven Accuracy, and Stabbing Shot (elf-only, for some reason).

The number of melee options in APG dwarfs them, however.

On the ranged front, the ability to make area attacks (lines, bursts, or cones), or get some sort of cleave-like effect (ferex, by bouncing a sling stone from one target to another) wouldn't go amiss.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
On the ranged front, the ability to make area attacks (lines, bursts, or cones), or get some sort of cleave-like effect (ferex, by bouncing a sling stone from one target to another) wouldn't go amiss.

I have a problem with area attacks with things like arrows, but I could see a Feat granting a line attack with such things with a STR min. Think of it as a "blowthrough" for piercing attacks.

A similar effect for "pinballing" might work with a high DEX min and blunt missiles.
 

I have a problem with area attacks with things like arrows,

Really? I'm okay with the idea of a high-level(-ish) archer being able to, as a full-round action, put enough arrows into a ~10'x10' area that everyone in there has to at least dodge out of the way or cover-up (in keeping with the whole HP-are-not-just-physical-wounds idea).

I'd basically crib heavily from the SW Saga autofire rules. That would open up things like feats to modify the area (either by changing its shape, or excluding targets, etc.).

Basically, my POV is that melee fighters tend to get "cool tricks" to perform - combat maneuvers, especially* - while ranged fighters tend to be stuck in the "make another normal attack" region of the rules.

* - Another main change from 3.5 to Pathfinder is the number of cool tricks melee fighters get, the increased ease of pulling off said tricks without spending feats (e.g., a successful AoO doesn't negate a Disarm attempt, etc., merely make it harder), and the decrease in the base difficulty numbers.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Really? I'm okay with the idea of a high-level(-ish) archer being able to, as a full-round action, put enough arrows into a ~10'x10' area that everyone in there has to at least dodge out of the way or cover-up (in keeping with the whole HP-are-not-just-physical-wounds idea).

That's what some version of Manyshot is for.
 

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