D&D 3E/3.5 What are the main changes from 3.5 to Pathfinder?

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

That's what some version of Manyshot is for.

Which one? There's only one in the core book (quoted below), and there're no feats in the APG that build off of it.

Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a bow, your first attack fires two arrows. If the attack hits, both arrows hit. Apply precision-based damage (such as sneak attack) and critical hit damage only once for this attack. Damage bonuses from using a composite bow with a high Strength bonus apply to each arrow, as do other damage bonuses, such as a ranger’s favored enemy bonus. Damage reduction and resistances apply separately to each arrow

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

One as yet unwritten.

My thing is I'd be against "one shot, many hits" in any AoE other than a line (see the blowthrough and pinballing comments above)- I'm totally cool with putting multiple projectiles in flight...within limits.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

One as yet unwritten.

My thing is I'd be against "one shot, many hits" in any AoE other than a line (see the blowthrough and pinballing comments above)- I'm totally cool with putting multiple projectiles in flight...within limits.

Oh! Yeah - I agree with that. Maybe the new Combat book will have some neat tricks for ranged characters in it.

Also, the APG adds "Parting Shot" which lets you shoot while running away. I missed that one earlier.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Of course, a revised Manyshot might look pretty über coupled with something like the "blowthrough" feat...

 

[Shisumo]

I have a problem with area attacks with things like arrows, but I could see a Feat granting a line attack with such things with a STR min. Think of it as a "blowthrough" for piercing attacks.

It's a 19th level class ability for the crossbowman archetype of the fighter in the APG.

That makes it much less likely to be a feat, methinks.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

It's a 19th level class ability for the crossbowman archetype of the fighter in the APG.

That makes it much less likely to be a feat, methinks.

Except that ability is:

1) Not terribly great to begin with; it requires a critical hit, and applies a penalty on the attack roll against the secondary target. It only affects a maximum of two targets, ever.

2) Available way, way, way too late. At the same point in time a crossbowman is able to shoot two guys with one shot, the Wizard's casting Wish and reshaping reality such that those two guys never even existed to begin with.

Similarly, at level 17, crossbowmen get to make a Trip attempt or a Bull Rush attempt with their shot. 17th. Level.

 

[SlyDoubt]

Really? The wizard argument? No one is ever going to be as potentially powerful as a wizard or cleric. Period.

How could they be. A guy with a sword or bow shouldn't be the equivalent of a wizard, it just makes no sense. Unless you're playing with people you don't know or in a convention setting I just don't see how this matters at all. You're not fighting each other.

I think PF has done plenty to give non-magical classes other interesting things to do that aren't magical. If magic is such an issue in a home game just ban the spells that seem to invalidate everyone elses abilities. If the wizard always wants to steal the show from everyone else that's more his problem not being able to get along than the game. Wizards should have ridiculously powerful options but that doesn't mean they should always use them. That has more to do with etiquette than rules.

Magic is essentially stuff that plays outside the rules everyone else follows. If you choose to play a class with no magical aptitude you know that ahead of time and thankfully since your players/DM are humans you can discuss the issue.

Sorry for the tangent. I just have an issue with making fighters able to do things wizards can do/making wizards as powerful as a guy with a sword/bow. Magic needs to be magical to be magic at all. Magic is supposed to break the rules. It wouldn't be exciting if it didn't.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yeah, never been a slave to game balance, so wizards being über in D&D never bugged me. I always saw them as the aircraft carrier in a naval strike group.

 

[Shisumo]

Except that ability is:

1) Not terribly great to begin with; it requires a critical hit, and applies a penalty on the attack roll against the secondary target. It only affects a maximum of two targets, ever.

2) Available way, way, way too late. At the same point in time a crossbowman is able to shoot two guys with one shot, the Wizard's casting Wish and reshaping reality such that those two guys never even existed to begin with.

Similarly, at level 17, crossbowmen get to make a Trip attempt or a Bull Rush attempt with their shot. 17th. Level.

To clarify: I am not suggesting that is necessarily as it should be. (To be honest, wish isn't the most helpful yardstick to be using, but that's beside the point.) What I am saying is, because the ability exists, and it is level 19, I find it extremely unlikely Paizo's development team will write it up as a feat, particularly one with a BAB requirement less than +19.

As a side note, the AoE arrow attack also exists as a high-level archer ability, via the archer fighter archetype.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Really? The wizard argument? No one is ever going to be as potentially powerful as a wizard or cleric. Period.

Yes. The wizard argument.

Just because you elect to not play a wizard, does not mean that you should not have multiple choices of "Neat Things to Do" each and every round of combat.

The fact that your "Neat Things" will be fairly mundane in nature does not mean that you shouldn't have any to choose from, and is one of the weaknesses of D&D since, I dunno, Chainmail, that has persisted through 3.X and which Pathfinder inherited.

The unmodified (or, at best, slightly modified) normal attack against a single target is the bane of the warrior-types.

High-level archer-types should be acting like over-the-top Robin Hoods, making trick shots off of walls, splitting shields with a well-placed bolt, firing three arrows at once into three different targets, etc. Getting one additional attack when you score a critical hit is, at best, underwhelming. Even worse, it doesn't even provide an option to the crossbowman - it's just another modification to his standard, I've-been-doing-this-since-1st-level basic attack.

As it should be:

High-Level warrior combat action : low-level warrior combat action :: wish : magic missile