D&D 5E What are the Roles now?

[Bluenose]

It's not who gets to cast it, the healing itself is divine magic. The psionic healing can be thought of as an exception if you wish, but I treat psionics as magic anyway. This is for D&D (every edition), and arguably it's at least a little true in other RPG's and fantasy literature.

The Bard explicitly uses arcane magic in every edition since 2nd, and that includes the editions where they get healing spells (3e onwards).

And where you get the idea that "healing magic" = "divine magic" in non-D&D RPGs is beyond my understanding.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

It's not who gets to cast it, the healing itself is divine magic. The psionic healing can be thought of as an exception if you wish, but I treat psionics as magic anyway. This is for D&D (every edition), and arguably it's at least a little true in other RPG's and fantasy literature.

Er...what? No, it's not divine magic. Bards heal people with explicitly arcane magic, no divinities involved, and that's been the case since at least 3e. (Edit: Ninja'd there, looks like it's been that way since 2e!)

And if we're speaking about "every edition," you're even more off. 4e Shaman are Primal, not Divine, and they're healers (as are certain kinds of Druids). Ardents (Psionic), Bards and Artificiers (Arcane) are also healers and none of them are Divine. Only Clerics and Runepriests are Divine, yet all of these listed classes explicitly use magic to heal others.

 

[Eric V]

I don't think he's played much of 4e, so those examples wouldn't work for him.

3e bards, though...

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The Bard explicitly uses arcane magic in every edition since 2nd, and that includes the editions where they get healing spells (3e onwards).

And where you get the idea that "healing magic" = "divine magic" in non-D&D RPGs is beyond my understanding.

Do you have a quote for the bard being "arcane" in 5E?

 

[Hussar]

Hrm, healing as divine in genre fantasy:

Stephen Erikson's Malazan series - Squad mages are healers. And it is deliberately arcane magic as divine magic invokes gods.
Glen Cook's Black Company - healing is done by arcane casters. There are no divine casters in that world.
David Edding's Belgariad series - healing is done by arcane casters. To be fair though, arcane casters are quasi-divine in that world.

Does Robert Jordan have healers? I've never read him.

I think there are a number of examples of non-divine healing in genre fiction.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Not sure this qualifies as "roles", but here's what I think creates a "well rounded" party:
-A STR based bruiser of some sort wit the ability to take a hit.
-A rogue type, DEX based for damage, stealth, etc.
-Access to arcane magic.
-Access to divine magic.

They certainly follow the classic four: Fighter, Thief, Wizard, Cleric.

But they don't have to conform to 4e roles, per se. It's way looser in combat in 5e.
It's a logical progression, the game has entered a period of flowing away from MMO conventions (heck, MMOs are flowing away from MMO conventions, look at Guild Wars 2). So, tank-healer-dps is out.

tl;dr: It's once again about a "well rounded" party that can cover any situation, rather than "roles" that dictate combat duties.

are you ok with some mixing and matching?

-A STR based bruiser of some sort wit the ability to take a hit.

a low str but high con and high wisdom battlemind in 4e was our defender in one game, and a modrite str but high INT and DEX Swordmage in another... both where out bruisers eith the ability to take a hit

-A rogue type, DEX based for damage, stealth, etc.

Again an Avenger with a High Wis and INt could pull that off, or a warlock with a good cha and an ok dex... or a multi classed bard/swordmage with traning in stealth and a flair for being rogue like...

-Access to arcane magic.

even going back to 2e, sometimes a psionic character could handle this role, but in 4e so could a Invoker (divine), or a well rounded ranger... not to mention both other roles you mentioned could have arcane magic as part of them...

-Access to divine magic.

with the exception of 4e and some weird combos at the end of 3e this is a D&D staple... almost every party needs a divine magic user... and I hate that. A lot of my friends don't like playing religus, and the ones that do like it don't like always being the healer...


so again

group 1 FIghter, Rogue, Cleric, Wizard

group 2 Swordmage, Avenger, Warlord, Psion

group 3 Battlemind, Fighter, Shaman, Invoker

group 4 Swordmage, Warlock, Bard, Wizard

group 5 Fighter, Ranger, Warlord, Ranger

group 6 Paliden, Avenger, Ruinpriest, Invoker

group 7 Barbarian, Barbarian, Druid, Druid

all 7 groups have the basics covered, if you call them defender, striker, leader, controller, or if you call them warrior, rogue, healer, aoe, or if you call them fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard... the names can change a bit but the are still the basic D&D party...

Hrm, healing as divine in genre fantasy:

Stephen Erikson's Malazan series - Squad mages are healers. And it is deliberately arcane magic as divine magic invokes gods.
Glen Cook's Black Company - healing is done by arcane casters. There are no divine casters in that world.
David Edding's Belgariad series - healing is done by arcane casters. To be fair though, arcane casters are quasi-divine in that world.

Does Robert Jordan have healers? I've never read him.

I think there are a number of examples of non-divine healing in genre fiction.

in the Dresden books there is both divine (paliden) and arcane (wizard) abilities that heal... in fact in that world arcane users heal quickly. The divide in the power source is very important in the fiction.

in the Necroscope (hey another harry) series everyone is psychic or vampric there is no divine but they have healers.

Word of darkness both novels and game have mages as healers... infact it is very rare for any divine agent to heal...

and then there are alchemical healers... no diven in a lot of books

It's not who gets to cast it, the healing itself is divine magic. (snip about house rule psionics) it's at least a little true in other RPG's and fantasy literature.

not every fantasy literature.., as we just showed with some very popular ones...

 

[BryonD]

I think there are a number of examples of non-divine healing in genre fiction.

While I enjoy the "divine healing" trope of D&D, it is just that.
You are correct.

(I also enjoy ignoring the trope, but when present it adds certain flavor to the game)

 

[Bluenose]

Do you have a quote for the bard being "arcane" in 5E?

I thought it was mentioned in the chapter on casting and preparing spells, rather than in the bard class entry, but I might be mistaken. I certainly can't find it now.

I think there are a number of examples of non-divine healing in genre fiction.

It's also perhaps worth noting that there are examples of priests who can't heal because their deity doesn't grant that sort of power, both in fiction and RPGs.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I thought it was mentioned in the chapter on casting and preparing spells, rather than in the bard class entry, but I might be mistaken. I certainly can't find it now.

This is correct. Page 206, "Weave of Magic" sidebar, third paragraph: "All magic depends on the Weave, though different kinds of magic access it in different ways. The spells of wizards, warlocks, sorcerers, and bards are commonly called arcane magic. These spells rely on understanding--learned or intuitive--of the workings of the Weave. The caster plucks directly at the strands of the Weave to create the desired effect. Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters also use arcane magic. The spells of clerics, druids, paladins, and rangers are called divine magic. These spellcasters' access to the Weave is mediated by divine power--gods, the divine forces of nature, or the weight of a sacred oath." Emphasis in original. 5e explicitly calls magic gained through study, personal intuition, or revealed secrets "arcane," and Bards are repeatedly said to gain their magic from studying, practicing, etc. It involves no oaths, clearly does not come from the divine forces of nature, and isn't provided by a god, so it cannot be divine as defined in 5e.

It's also perhaps worth noting that there are examples of priests who can't heal because their deity doesn't grant that sort of power, both in fiction and RPGs.

And, likewise, there are examples in fiction where priests don't actually have magic at all, unless they also happen to be actual mages who have studied mortal magic. Dragon Age, for example; all magic there comes from being connected to the Fade and is linked to lyrium, and while there may be priests who can use magic, that just means they are Mages by talent and Priests by training.

 

[pemerton]

It's not who gets to cast it, the healing itself is divine magic.

<snip>

This is for D&D (every edition), and arguably it's at least a little true in other RPG's and fantasy literature.

As I'd already pointed out, and as others have also now pointed out, the 3E bard is a healer without the healing being divine. (Likewise in 4e.)

In the 1st ed AD&D supplement Dragonlance Adventures there was an arcane healing spell called Timeheal. That did not involve divinity.

In RuneQuet 3E (1st published 1984) sorcerers (whose magic is grounded in the manipulation of the "immutable laws" of an "impersonal universe") are able to restore injuries, regenerate damaged tissue and lost limbs, etc.