What are the strengths and weaknesses of different multiclass gishes?

[Jessica]

I was talking about in my recent AL character thread about the possibility of playing an EK/Wizard of some variety, but I also know people mention Paladin/Sorcerer sometimes as well. Admittedly multiclassing combos are one of my weaker areas of knowledge outside the really obvious ones like 1 level dips for healing bonuses or unarmored defense or what not or 2 level dips in Warlock for 90% of what makes playing a Warlock worthwhile. I think I've gotten past the point of being satisfied with a lot of single class characters(especially since AL tends to restrict the most awesome-est ones). What are the major multiclass gish combos(e.g. EK 7/Wiz 13, Pal 6/Sor 14) and how do they stack up against each other?

 

[bid]

First, I feel the deck is stacked toward 2-hander Str gish because S&B has the warcaster tax. This is even truer if you start with the Con save (EK or sorc). To add insult to injury, EK gets an extra feat at level 6.

Second, gish will use magic to supplement damage (smite, war magic) or bolster defenses (shield, dampen element). That makes 2 different types of gish.

Third, EK/AT are 1/3 casters while paladin/ranger are 1/2 casters. They need better features or a lower breakpoint to compensate for the lack of upcast.

Fourth, SCAG removed the need for extra attack with their cantrips. I don't consider a mere 2 level dip enough to make a gish, but you can come close in result.

 

[Jessica]

First, I feel the deck is stacked toward 2-hander Str gish because S&B has the warcaster tax. This is even truer if you start with the Con save (EK or sorc). To add insult to injury, EK gets an extra feat at level 6.

Definitely. I kept trying to find if there was any rulings anywhere by Mearls et al since I remember at the beginning of the edition, but yeah I remember the whole two handed thing only being applicable when you attack. So I guess rulings by Mearls or anyone are unnecessary.

Second, gish will use magic to supplement damage (smite, war magic) or bolster defenses (shield, dampen element). That makes 2 different types of gish.

I don't know. I think there is more that magic can do other than those two things. The utility is nice in being able to guarantee your own access to Fly or ways to escape combat*.

Third, EK/AT are 1/3 casters while paladin/ranger are 1/2 casters. They need better features or a lower breakpoint to compensate for the lack of upcast.

I agree. War Magic seems to be the best part of EK and the builds I try to come up with seem to go no higher than 10 but usually stop at 7.

Fourth, SCAG removed the need for extra attack with their cantrips. I don't consider a mere 2 level dip enough to make a gish, but you can come close in result.

Yeah. SCAG seems to be a game changer in that way. It feels kinda cheating to start with 2 levels in Fighter to get Action Surge, martial weapon proficiency, heavy armor proficiency, and a fighting style and then just go 18 levels of Wizard from there. I mean yeah you're a character who does the whole fighting and magic bit, but it seems like just barely meeting the requirements. Then again SCAG kinda removed one of the biggest reasons to go tons of levels in a martial class with the SCAG cantrips.

*Which is especially nice in AL because if you manage to escape and live through a TPK then basically YOU get to come back next week while everyone else just loses xp and loot from the adventure. For normal groups I'd imagine that usually just spells the end of a campaign to have a TPK-1. I'm not entirely sure because carebear DMs in AL always seem to let those noobs live anyways, but I wonder if RAW I would get all the xp and loot since I would have no one to legally split it with?

 

[Blue]

Couple of different parts to put together.

Wizard (Bladesinger) can give you a very nice boost IF you want light armor and have a good Int. From there how much wizard you take is negotiable. But remember that you can cast in any armor you are proficient in, so that's not your only choice. Also, it's power are not always on, and depending on DM and short rests may miss a lot of combats.

(Heavy armor class) / Wizard (Abjurer) can wear any armor and casting defensive spells like shield or absorb elements give an arcane ward which is basically a temp HP bank.

Bard (Valor) gives extra attack and full casting and buffing all by itself.

Sorcerer (Shadow) from UA: Underdark at 1st level gives a Con save vs. getting reduced to 0 HPs. Sorcerers have Con as a trained save.

A wildshaped Druid might be considered a variant gish. And can cast Shillelagh when not changed.

A Warlock (Tome) can also cast Shillelagh, using Chr. With the new attack cantrips in SCAG that can make them a better gish then Warlock (Blade).

Talking about Warlock and the cantrips, form that UA: Underdark comes the Undying Light patron which has +Chr to Fire/Radiant, which boosts those cantrips. Also has Fireshield (good gish spells) added to the warlock list. And yes, you can be a Tome Warlock with the Undying Light as a Patron.

Paladin 2 can very efficiently spell low level spell slots for a damage boost that works with any melee attack, including those given by the new cantrips.

If you are going up fighter, I'm still not convinced pure EK is worth it considering how slow you advance casting. But depending if you are taking a full spellcasting class it can grant you some spells like shield you wouldn't get otherwise.

Paladin and (Bard or Warlock or Sorcerer) fit together nicely with Chr, but you will still need Str 13 to multiclass paladin. At that point, it might be viable to do a heavy armor Str/Chr gish instead of the more common light armor Dex/[casting stat].

 

[Coyote81]

I'm hoping they do the world of Krynn soon so that we have an official version of the Minoatur. Minotaur really changes the name of the game when it comes playing a S/B Gish. it now become completely viable. I've been playing a Fighter1/Adjuration Wizard6 in my recent campaign and enjoying the success of being a wade into combat type wizard. The addition of the SCAG cantrips has really helped my damage output as well. I'm thinking about getting 3 more levels in fighter to get my ASI and a specialization. Thinking battlemaster over EK. Those couple of spell slots and cantrips won't really make or break my spellcasting, but the addition of some maneuvers and superiority dice could really help.

 

[Kithas]

Blue's list is pretty good a couple builds I'd throw in;
One build I've been wanting to get someone to try lately has been a war cleric/hunter ranger cross. With a maul or GS you get several bonus action swings, guided strike, divine favor, Horde breaker, and even whirlwind strike later. You don't really need the great weapon fighting style and defensive will serve you well. It seems like it would end up being a very solid melee aoe damage dealer. While still being rather defensive because of healing and multiattack defense and heavy armor.

One I personally will be doing at some point is 9sorc/8pal/3fgtr I do need warcaster as I will be doing sword/shield, I'm using booming blade for my main attacks and with quickened spell from sorc can even do it as a bonus action on a few turns(3 in one turn on an action surge). Basically this type of build can dump a lot of damage into some nova rounds with Divine smite, while still being very defensively minded on the other rounds.

Generally speaking with the classes that start with con proficiencies generally I choose to do the other class if I have one that will give me wis saves. Usually you won't want to get Resilient(Wis) and getting mind controlled sucks. While the advantage will generally mean you pass con saves as long as your con is good.

P.s. Diviner Wiz/Arcane Trickster rogue with lucky is really cool too

 

[Blue]

I'm hoping they do the world of Krynn soon so that we have an official version of the Minoatur. Minotaur really changes the name of the game when it comes playing a S/B Gish. it now become completely viable. I've been playing a Fighter1/Adjuration Wizard6 in my recent campaign and enjoying the success of being a wade into combat type wizard.

I'm 95% sure you know from what you wrote and I'm being needlessly repetitive, but until an Official Krynn setting comes out, the Krynn Minotaur is in the Unearthed Arcana: Waterbourne. (https://media.wizards.com/2015/downloads/dnd/UA_Waterborne_v3.pdf).

And I had never considered how beautifully the horns work for freeing up your hands for a gish. Fantastic catch.

 

[Kithas]

The 'warcaster tax' isn't all bad, it does let you react with a spell to oa's meaning you can do booming blade on a reaction.

 

[bid]

One I personally will be doing at some point is 9sorc/8pal/3fgtr I do need warcaster as I will be doing sword/shield, I'm using booming blade for my main attacks and with quickened spell from sorc can even do it as a bonus action on a few turns(3 in one turn on an action surge).

Did you think of getting reckless attack from barbarian 2? Advantage on all 3 attacks would boost your nova, no need to rage or pick the attack action.

 

[Illithidbix]

Paladin/Warlock has definite potential since it is confirmed (by the errata and semi-officialness of Mearls' tweets) you can use Pact Magic spell slots (that recover on short rests) with Divine Smite.
Unsure if it's more optimal to go for a 2 level dip into Warlock (for two level 1 spell slots) or 3 for two level 2 spell slots.

Picking up Eldritch Blast, Hex and the Agonising Blast invocation with those two levels will give some nice ranged blastyness.
Esp. since cantrips scale with character level, not class level.

Although how much of a Gish this really is (rather than supercharged smitebunny) is a different question.