D&D (2024) How to fix multiclassing?

ECMO3

Hero
I think this is largely correct. You would not even need to plug every gap to bring these combos in line, presumably just tighten up the wording in the multiclass section. So specifically, if we are going to target just these combos, what additional sentence could be added to the multiclass section to bring these combos into line?

Sorlock: Warlock spell slots may not be converted into spell points. Sorcerer spells may not be converted into Warlock Smite damage.
Hexadin: Warlock spells may not be converted into Paladin Smite damage.
Sorcadin: Paladin spell slots may not be converted into spell points. Sorcerer spells may not be converted into Paladin Smite damage.

Looks like Eldritch Blast is becoming a class feature, which might fix some issues there regarding multiple beams and level dips/feats.

Anything else?

NB: This is to reign in overpowered combos. I think Smite damage needs to be fixed more generally. It doesn't preclude feats that enhance multiclassing in some way.

I have never seen a problem with any of those things in play. I have seen a lot of theories on how bad they are, but we have seen those class combos in play and never had a problem. Part of the reason why is smites are generally a weak use of a spell slot compared to what you can get out of an actual spell of that level.

I also think there are many single class Wizard builds and a few Cleric builds that are quite a bit more powerful than those "OP" combos.

Multiclassing Sorlock for sorcerery points is a particularly bad idea. You would actually have more Sorcery points if you just were a single-class Sorcerer and used the higher level slots you don't have with the multiclass for sorcery points. For example using a 2-short rest day on an 8th level character:

Warlock Dip-Level 6 Sorc/Level 2 Warlock: Your Warlock slots will give you 6 SPs per day, but if you were a single class Sorc you would have 2 more to start with and 2 4th level slots that could give you 8 more on top of that.

Sorcerer Dip - Level 3 Sorc/Level 5 Warlock: Your Warlock gives you 18 more Sorcery Points (assuming 2 short rests) assuming you never want to cast a spell higher than 2nd level, but if you were a single class sorcerer you would start with 5 more and your extra spell slots (1-2nd, 3-3rd, 2-4th) are worth 19 Sorcery points. So casting the same spells, the single class character has 6 more SPs.

Equal Multiclass - Level 4 Sorc/Level 4 Warlock: Your Warlock slots can be converted into 12 more SPs, but a single-class Sorc would start with 4 more and have extra sorcerer slots worth 17 more.

In all 3 of these examples you are losing SPs per day with the multiclass and that assumes an ideal 2 short rests a day.

Also. RAW Sorcerer spell slots can not be used for Eldritch Smite. That can only be done with Pact Slots:

"Once per turn when you hit a creature with your pact weapon, you can expend a warlock spell slot to deal an extra 1d8 force damage to the target, plus another 1d8 per level of the spell slot, and you can knock the target prone if it is Huge or smaller."

I really hope they do not make EB a class feature for two reasons. First I don't use it on all my Warlock builds and second, it is nice to have it as an option on things like Magic Initiate.
 

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Pauln6

Hero
Maybe
Smite: +Cha damage to smite, a number of times equal to you proficiency bonus
Aura of protection: +3 to savings throws.

Yes, they can take it multiple times.

And they get more invocations of course. Properly level locked.

No. Because not all spells are not balanced for short rest casting. Like healing, or ones that last for more than an hour like Aid.

But no reason why short rest spells can be cast with long rest slots. Wording like that exsist in several places already.

Once you cast the Spell with this trait, you can’t cast that Spell with it again until you finish a Short Rest; however, you can cast the spell using any spell Slots you have of the appropriate level.
Short rest spell-casting is usually balanced by level. Low level sorcerers will only be able to cast low level spells in their higher level warlock slots and vice versa plus upscaling lower level spells in higher warlock slots is generally viewed as a weaker option than casting higher level spells. I don't think this is an issue that needs fixing. Many people think that invocations giving the option to cast certain spells once per long rest at the cost of a spell slot are quite weak.

Changing the invocation dynamic could create unintentional imbalances without a lot of careful consideration and playtesting. I think most players of classes who who function with known spells would say the problem is not knowing enough spells (without the burden of knowing every spell on the list). A slight increase here might be more popular than changing the way pact spells work.
 
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Pauln6

Hero
Also. RAW Sorcerer spell slots can not be used for Eldritch Smite. That can only be done with Pact Slots:

"Once per turn when you hit a creature with your pact weapon, you can expend a warlock spell slot to deal an extra 1d8 force damage to the target, plus another 1d8 per level of the spell slot, and you can knock the target prone if it is Huge or smaller."

I really hope they do not make EB a class feature for two reasons. First I don't use it on all my Warlock builds and second, it is nice to have it as an option on things like Magic Initiate.
Yes I think you are correct to say that technically, the cross class smiting already shouldn't work. That so many think it should is perhaps why they need to repeat that in the multiclassing section.

I think the problem with EB from Magic Initiate is the scaling. Giving a single blast with Charisma bonus to damage might be fine for a feat - decent range, better damage than an arrow, no ammunition concerns. Maybe that's the middle ground. Save the scaling for actual warlocks and while they are at it, give us some little tweaks in other cantrips. Would a Firebolt that pushes people back be so terrible?
 

mellored

Legend
Short rest spell-casting is usually balanced by level.
Primarily, yes. But some spells just aren't designed to be spammed.
Again, Aid last 8 hours. Do it 2 or 3 times before you head in to a cave could be a problem.
Low level sorcerers will only be able to cast low level spells in their higher level warlock slots and vice versa plus upscaling lower level spells in higher warlock slots is generally viewed as a weaker option than casting higher level spells.
sorcerers can also just dump them for SP.
Many people think that invocations giving the option to cast certain spells once per long rest at the cost of a spell slot are quite weak.
Long rest spells are not great.
Short rest is twice as good.
And again, you'll have more of them.
Changing the invocation dynamic could create unintentional imbalances without a lot of careful consideration and playtesting.
Good thing there is a play test.:)
If it's terrible, then they can change it back.
I think most players of classes who who function with known spells would say the problem is not knowing enough spells
Seems like they are giving evey one the ability to change their spells daily.

Swapping invocations would be good too.
 

Pauln6

Hero
Primarily, yes. But some spells just aren't designed to be spammed.
Again, Aid last 8 hours. Do it 2 or 3 times before you head in to a cave could be a problem.

sorcerers can also just dump them for SP.

Long rest spells are not great.
Short rest is twice as good.
And again, you'll have more of them.

Good thing there is a play test.:)
If it's terrible, then they can change it back.

Seems like they are giving evey one the ability to change their spells daily.

Swapping invocations would be good too.
Twice as good does not automatically equal so good it needs to be nerfed. Spells that last an hour are not necessarily broken if you get spell slots back on a short rest either. That multiclass cleric also has daily slots they can use for the spell plus one cannot automatically take short rests. Circumstances, including location or other players, may prevent this. I'm not a fan of casters knowing every spell on their list. I'm not a fan of warlocks or fighters being able to retrain class features after a simple rest. It makes it feel less immersive and helps strip flavour from character builds. I'm more in favour of retraining when they gain a level or on downtime or having a ritual with a time and monetary cost attached that lets you entreat your master for an amendment to your pact involving one invocation. A list of possible invocations that are swappable with a ritual for each pact might be a cool way to add flavour and versatility.
 
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mellored

Legend
Twice I'm as good does not automatically equal so good it needs to be nerfed.
I don't see how it's a nerf, except for sorlock and hexadins.
Spells that last an hour are not necessarily broken if you get spell slots back on a short rest either.
Not automatically broken no. But the 8 hour spells definitely have more issues. But there is the potential for them to be.
Warlock/crono wizard 10 + catnap = everyone in the party casts firewall at the start of the fight. Then use repelling blast...
That multiclass cleric also has daily slots they can use for the spell plus one cannot automatically take short rests. Circumstances, including location or other players, may prevent this.
And they still can cast them with the cleric slots. Just not short rest spam.
A list of possible invocations that are swappable with a ritual for each pact might be a cool way to add flavour and versatility.
Sure. A ritual is more flavorful. And I do agree you shouldn't be able to swap everything all the time (except tome warlocks and scribe wizards). Though more often than one per level.

Maybe swap one invocation/spell per long rest as a nice middle ground.
 
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Pauln6

Hero
I don't see how it's a nerf, except for sorlock and hexadins.

Not automatically broken no. But the 8 hour spells definitely have more issues. But there is the potential for them to be.
Warlock/crono wizard 10 + catnap = everyone in the party casts firewall at the start of the fight. Then use repelling blast...

And they still can cast them with the cleric slots. Just not short rest spam.

Sure. A ritual is more flavorful. And I do agree you shouldn't be able to swap everything all the time (except tome warlocks and scribe wizards). Though more often than one per level.

Maybe swap one invocation/spell per long rest as a nice middle ground.
I think if a spell is still active, a warlock (or anyone else for that matter) should only be able to regain that spell slot if the spell is dismissed. If they want to make an exception to that rule put it in the spell description. Sorcery points should only be allowed from sorcerer spell slots.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I think if a spell is still active, a warlock (or anyone else for that matter) should only be able to regain that spell slot if the spell is dismissed. If they want to make an exception to that rule put it in the spell description. Sorcery points should only be allowed from sorcerer spell slots.
But once a sorcerer multiclasses, they no longer have any "sorcerer slots" only slots (because they meld together from all classes) Unless you propose that multiclass spellcasters should all go abck to keeping track of slots separately by class?
 

Pauln6

Hero
But once a sorcerer multiclasses, they no longer have any "sorcerer slots" only slots (because they meld together from all classes) Unless you propose that multiclass spellcasters should all go abck to keeping track of slots separately by class?
Are you sure that's right? The actual wording says, "you can use spells slots you gain from the Pact Magic Class feature to cast spells you know or have prepared from classes with the spellcasting feature." That explicitly states the spell slots remain warlock spell slots. The issue is actually that the font of magic class feature applies to any spell slot. It just needs to be limited to sorcerer spell slots or spell slots gained from the multiclass spellcaster spell slot table, which would exclude warlock spell slots.
 

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