D&D (2024) How to fix multiclassing?

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Because the system as is, barrng a few exception, works extremely well. And most of those exceptions are already depending on a certain reading of the mutlticlass rules, which is probably wrong: being able to use warlock spells for smite or sorcery points.
Multiclassing at its strongest is about setting up synergies... Those tend to involve similarities. If wotc does anything to "fix Multiclassing" it's self defeating in that goal to begin with the idea that "Multiclassing works extremely well" or embrace the self congratulating idea it would take for them to think one d&d won't wind up with edge cases that a more robust subsystem than a self defeating one less in need of "fixing" could mitigate.
 
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Multiclassing at its strongest is about setting up synergies... Those tend to involve similarities. If wotc does anything to "fix Multiclassing" it's self defeating in that goal to begin with the idea that "Multiclassing works extremely well" or embrace the self congratulating idea it would take for them to think one d&d won't wind up with edge cases that a more robust subsystem than a self defeating one less in need of "fixing" could mitigate.

I think there needs something to be done with magic/pact magic and cantrips/extra attacks.

But there is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater, which some people suggest.
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I think there needs something to be done with magic/pact magic and cantrips/extra attacks.

But there is no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater, which some people suggest.
You aren't talkies out that though, just praising and excusing the problem inviting version present in 5e
 


tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
So you are just making a problem of a molehill, not understanding the scope of the problem, trying to fix things that don't need fixing and just letting things that are a problem remain?
Not at all. There will always be classes that are going to wind up unusually good combos for dipping & those will leave the gm stuck trying to handle both that and the single classed pc. Rather than dismissing that problem or pretending that every one of the symptoms should be addressed with one off a class specific fixes I'm suggesting that as the root cause of all the problem combos the multiclass rules themselves should be fixed and it seems like . Every time that discussion resumes you jump in to tell us all how the multiclassing subsystem is perfection.
 

Not at all. There will always be classes that are going to wind up unusually good combos for dipping & those will leave the gm stuck trying to handle both that and the single classed pc. Rather than dismissing that problem or pretending that every one of the symptoms should be addressed with one off a class specific fixes I'm suggesting that as the root cause of all the problem combos the multiclass rules themselves should be fixed and it seems like . Every time that discussion resumes you jump in to tell us all how the multiclassing subsystem is perfection.

If you read it that way, so be it.
But you come in and say all is bad. So who is right?
Your fixes will either make everything bad or will still have some too good combinations. As I said, every feat, every subclass can be rated. Some will be too god. Some will be too bad.

Multiclassing has its root problems in the lack of good abilities of some classes at high level and the overpowerdness of some low level abilities of a few classes or subclasses...

The 3 offenders are sorlock, hexadin and sorcadin...
The rest is in line with single classes. So again. Why do you insist of "fixing" a system that has worked for us for 10 years now and replace it with an untested system that will most pobably also have issues.
Why not fix the root of the problem, changing the wording of a few abilities and making it clear, that warlock slots can not be used for class abilities.
 

Pauln6

Hero
If you read it that way, so be it.
But you come in and say all is bad. So who is right?
Your fixes will either make everything bad or will still have some too good combinations. As I said, every feat, every subclass can be rated. Some will be too god. Some will be too bad.

Multiclassing has its root problems in the lack of good abilities of some classes at high level and the overpowerdness of some low level abilities of a few classes or subclasses...

The 3 offenders are sorlock, hexadin and sorcadin...
The rest is in line with single classes. So again. Why do you insist of "fixing" a system that has worked for us for 10 years now and replace it with an untested system that will most pobably also have issues.
Why not fix the root of the problem, changing the wording of a few abilities and making it clear, that warlock slots can not be used for class abilities.
I think this is largely correct. You would not even need to plug every gap to bring these combos in line, presumably just tighten up the wording in the multiclass section. So specifically, if we are going to target just these combos, what additional sentence could be added to the multiclass section to bring these combos into line?

Sorlock: Warlock spell slots may not be converted into spell points. Sorcerer spells may not be converted into Warlock Smite damage.
Hexadin: Warlock spells may not be converted into Paladin Smite damage.
Sorcadin: Paladin spell slots may not be converted into spell points. Sorcerer spells may not be converted into Paladin Smite damage.

Looks like Eldritch Blast is becoming a class feature, which might fix some issues there regarding multiple beams and level dips/feats.

Anything else?

NB: This is to reign in overpowered combos. I think Smite damage needs to be fixed more generally. It doesn't preclude feats that enhance multiclassing in some way.
 

mellored

Legend
Sorlock: Warlock spell slots may not be converted into spell points. Sorcerer spells may not be converted into Warlock Smite damage.
Hexadin: Warlock spells may not be converted into Paladin Smite damage.
Sorcadin: Paladin spell slots may not be converted into spell points. Sorcerer spells may not be converted into Paladin Smite damage.
That doesn't stop a Paladin from going wizard, Cleric, bard, and constantly smiting that way.

Just change smite to +1d8, usable a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus. (Maybe turn down the +Cha to saves as well).

Also, I suggest Warlocks lose spell slots, and turn pact magic into an invocation. Solves a number of interactions.

Pact magic
Select a spell, you can cast it once per short rest. You need to be a minimum level... it scale by Warlock level...
 
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Pauln6

Hero
That doesn't stop a Paladin from going wizard, Cleric, bard, and constantly smiting that way.

Just change smite to +1d8, usable a number of times equal to your proficiency bonus. (Maybe turn down the +Cha to saves as well).

Also, I suggest Warlocks lose spell slots, and turn pact magic into an invocation. Solves a number of interactions.

Pact magic
Select a spell, you can cast it once per short rest. You need to be a minimum level... it scale by Warlock level...
Obviously, you could apply the same limitations to other spell-casting classes and/or add the caveat to the paladin and warlock classes. I do also agree that the paladin boost to saves should be half Charisma bonus (minimum +1). A daily limit smiting is also not a bad idea but the issue for me is crit-fishing. There needs to be a way to reign in damage - possibly 1d8 damage plus 4 damage per spell level spent.

Are you proposing drastically reducing the number of warlock spells known but potentially increasing the number of spells you can cast per short rest by just picking pact magic multiple times? Even if you allow the warlock to know all the spells on their subclass list, that still sounds very limiting. Or are you suggesting keeping the warlock progression exactly the same but just changing the name of the spell slots to pact magic? If the latter, would you still allow them to cast spells from their other classes using the warlock pact magic slots? If not, it does become harder to see any synergy with other caster classes.

I think my experience of warlocks is that it's only when they get to 3 spells per short rest that they start to feel magical enough. Personally I would like to advance their progression so that the hit that sweet spot a bit faster.
 

mellored

Legend
Obviously, you could apply the same limitations to other spell-casting classes and/or add the caveat to the paladin and warlock classes. I do also agree that the paladin boost to saves should be half Charisma bonus (minimum +1). A daily limit smiting is also not a bad idea but the issue for me is crit-fishing. There needs to be a way to reign in damage - possibly 1d8 damage plus 4 damage per spell level spent.
Maybe
Smite: +Cha damage to smite, a number of times equal to you proficiency bonus
Aura of protection: +3 to savings throws.
Are you proposing drastically reducing the number of warlock spells known but potentially increasing the number of spells you can cast per short rest by just picking pact magic multiple times?
Yes, they can take it multiple times.

And they get more invocations of course. Properly level locked.
would you still allow them to cast spells from their other classes using the warlock pact magic slots?
No. Because not all spells are not balanced for short rest casting. Like healing, or ones that last for more than an hour like Aid.

But no reason why short rest spells can be cast with long rest slots. Wording like that exsist in several places already.

Once you cast the Spell with this trait, you can’t cast that Spell with it again until you finish a Short Rest; however, you can cast the spell using any spell Slots you have of the appropriate level.
 

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