D&D 5E What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

[mamba]

The very existence of Tabaxi, for example, indicates there is a biological bridge somewhere between Humans (or something similar) and felines (of some sort)

or there is not and that is just how they evolved.

Humans and cats have the same ancestor somewhere down the line (your bridge, but way back in time), things could have turned out differently too, this does not require interbreeding

 

[Minigiant]

1 in 216 humans is as strong as the very strongest humans? 1 in 216 humans is at the very top of the IQ chart? 1 in 216 humans is as agile as an Olympic gold medalist gymnast?

Nah. Real human bell curves are a lot wider than 3d6 allows for. With much wider and narrow tails on the curve.

I think 5e really misses the Elite and Nonelite arrays.

Every human doesn't roll for stats. Most beings have All 10s and 11s or has a weak array with a 13 and 12 in the scores associated with their profession and a 8 and 9 somewhere.

So the town blacksmith has a 13 STR 8 DEX, 9 CHA and 12 INT before race ASI.

Better education, special heritage, crafted bloodlines, or hard training could rank a commoner or noble to 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

Only the people who the world call lucky (or freaks) get to roll. And the ones who roll well become PCs.

Like I'd say every hybrid species or noble of a "pure" bloodline roles for stats because their genetics are "suspect".

 

[Lanefan]

Which is cheap and easy to get in 5E if you use any sort of rules for buying magic items (like the Downtime rules in Xanathar's).

Perhaps. Bags of holding are pretty rare things in my game, and I think I'd keep it that way in any edition.

your players don't buy arrows in quivers? Wut.

An arrow in a quiver in a bag is hardly accessible at the rate the game expects you to be firing them off.

 

[Lanefan]

1 in 216 humans is as strong as the very strongest humans? 1 in 216 humans is at the very top of the IQ chart? 1 in 216 humans is as agile as an Olympic gold medalist gymnast?

Nah. Real human bell curves are a lot wider than 3d6 allows for. With much wider and narrow tails on the curve.

I agree the bell curves would be way wider with very long tails, but for abstraction purposes the 3d6 curve does well enough to get the point across. A steeper curve, though more awkward to roll, can be easily achieved using 5d4-2.

 

[MichaelSomething]

That's funny and all, but I think we'd find that if they compiled and clarified all the extant things to buy, and then added a few more things beyond just Plate Mail and Studded Leather that you can buy after character generation. And probably put prices on Magic Items, even though I suspect that most people would like them to avoid the idea that Magic Shops are everywhere, it's still a good idea for DM Guidance.

I mean, I personally like low-magic item games and loathe the 3e idea of Magic Shops Everywhere but even I wouldn't mind Magic Item Prices as a tool I can use to quick-judge how much I'm giving out. (Which would likely be on the low end of the scale, but it's still a useful tool).

Again, I don't think anyone is asking for massive system changes. Or if they are, that's not the point of this thread.

It would be nice to have buying magic items as a downtime activity. I personally would like it to take 1d20 weeks with various modifiers based on access to trade centers, rareness of the item and so on. The magic item Walmart was an abstraction for the sake of convenience. Buying magic items shouldn't be trivial; but it should be possible.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Long ago I took the various 1e monster manuals and, using the information and inferences given there, made up a whacking big chart of what can in theory interbreed with what. The very existence of Tabaxi, for example, indicates there is a biological bridge somewhere between Humans (or something similar) and felines (of some sort). Centaurs can in theory breed with both Humans and horses, another bridge. And on and on it goes.

Whilst you can have that be true in your world, there's absolutely no reason, biologically, for these "bridges" you imagine.

A Tabaxi looks like a cat and human, but biologically it might be very similar to one or the other, or in fact, to neither.

Centaurs are even wilder - I mean, they didn't evolve and they certainly didn't interbreed from humans and horses - they were either created by the gods or by wizards or whoever. The human and horse parts might not even share DNA - they could simply be a magical combination that overrides that. It certainly doesn't imply a "bridge" between them and horses or humans.

 

[mamba]

Only the people who the world call lucky (or freaks) get to roll. And the ones who roll well become PCs.

or maybe someone who could have become a PC just as well chose a different path for whatever reason.

 

[Minigiant]

or maybe someone who could have become a PC just as well chose a different path for whatever reason.

What I meant is all PCs are Freaks. Not all Freaks are PCs.

 

[jgsugden]

Yep. The Story of the bad index and poor DM tools.

Truly an epic of our time.

You ... did see the word "most", right? So, if 300 issues were raised in this thread and 160 of them were essentially not an issue in stroy driven games ... that would be most. Right? You brought up 2 examples. Were there more than 4 issues raised in this thread? And frankly - a bad index is significant enough to be an issue for you? I've never really noticed the index being weak, and in today's digital days where many of us google a rule before we look at it in the book...

Not to mention objectively wrong. I see tons of "issues" in the game, and I'm ALL about Story in the game. And I'm only one example. I suspect nearly all of us are big into the story. It's just a foolish thing to say.

I went through the first 20 pages of this thread and the vast majority of the issues raised are not a problem in my games - at all - and for many of those it is because they tend to be issues that pop up when DMs ignore story - well over half the total "issues". Each of the things I saw there had been brought up countless times before and the argument I raised has been played out over and over and over.

The DMG as a book (more than just the layout) is the one I come closest to agreeing with, but I do not think it rises to an issue. I'd do it differently, but that does not make the way they did it here wrong. If I did it, half the DMG would move to the PHB, and there would be two DMGs - one that advises DMs on mechanical operations of the game and another that focuses on storybuilding, worldbuilding, and acting techniques.

For the rest of it, I - and the players at my table - do not seem to have any issues with any of the stuff in the thread. Some players have noted some of the criticisms raised and said they wish it were different, but they're still having fun with it as is.

Think of it this way: WotC decided to make a new edition. They make money if it sells. The best way to sell it is to show people how much better it is. Right? You don't sell the new year's car model by showing people it is just like last year's right?

They had lots of research, experience and talent aimed at coming up with the next edition ... and what did they decide to do? Mostly minor tweaks.

That makes it a harder sell, right? Come see the new edition of D&D - the same as you played for the last decade with a few tweaks! Now give us your money all over again!

This is the smallest change between editions we've ever seen. AD&D -> 2E (12 years), 2E - 3E (11 years), 3E to 4E (8 years), 4E to 5E (6 years) ... all much larger changes. Here, despite being in place much longer than either of the last two editions - tweaks.

5E works really well. No major issues.

Well, strike that. I will say I see one major issue, but I do not recall seeing it in the thread's first 20 pages. In AD&D through 4E they supported psionics. It became an integral part of many campaign settings. Many of us built homebrew worlds around the rules they provided, and that meant we created elemtns that revolved around psionics ... and WotC left us high and dry in 5E. That was an issue. They should provide some support for psionics within a year of the next edition release, even if it is just a pdf with 'enough to get by' rules. That is the only thing I'd call an issue for 5E.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Sure, they differ, no one said they are identical to humans.

How much more can an Elf with Strength 15 lift than a human with Strength 15? What about a Triton? How much better are they at Investigation when they all have the same Intelligence?

They are essentially humans in costumes, what sets them apart are some abilities their species come with.

Those aren't thematically necessary similarities. That's the point.

Even if we concede that humans should be perfect earth-human analogues despite all the contrary evidence, there isn't a reason all these other races should be.

It's a function of coincidental mechanics not narrative necessity.

There are easy experiments for this..think of every time you encounter a situation where you go

"oh there's no way a human could do that in real life"

And then substitute in
..robot
..half dragon
..half giant
..toddler sized person with the strength and toughness of a full grown adult man.
..half cat.
Etc.

And then laugh at the hoops you make yourself jump through to maintain your conclusion