D&D 5E (2014) What are the "True Issues" with 5e?

[R_J_K75]

Ben Riggs is a historian of the game, had a big book about the rise and fall of TSR a few years back. Currently seems to be doing a follow-up on the 3E and 4E eras.

Sounds like he has credentials, I never heard of him.

 

[Lanefan]

We already have what they are doing in hand, and they are bending over backwards to maintain compatibility.

So it might seem, but the proof is in the pudding; and after having seen how different 5e-as-released was from 5e-as-playtested I'm still leaving that jury sequestered.

 

[Gammadoodler]

I try to be even handed, I apologize if something I said was taken the wrong way. I made that post before I realized people were so serious about this stuff. I meant no insult but I really see no good answer to what you want. Certainly not from a game like D&D which oversimplifies virtually everything.

I did try to make light of the situation in the shovel post, hence the " ". But you really would need a ton of info to know how much you can shovel. There is no constant. So if we had something along the lines of "you can move a square foot of dirt every minute" and I'm envisioning the heavy clay soil around my house that I need a pickaxe to break up before I can shovel much at all, that's not going to work. If I'm envisioning dirt that was recently excavated and quite loose or a sandy beach a square foot a minute is low. Heck, I lived in Arizona for a while, I doubt I could have gotten more than a couple inches with just a shovel.

Along the same lines I honestly don't know what kind of information or details people would need about a tent. It keeps you out of the rain, and provides a bit of protection from the elements. It's a piece of waterproof cloth between you and the great outdoors. The last time anything like that was covered was back in the TSR days in the Wilderness Survival Guide where they dedicated a page or so to it. But even then it was just a lot of detail that gave the impression of useful info but it was still up to the DM to decide the current weather. It just added a layer of complexity for the DM when describing the weather. The book also didn't stop the arguments, especially their description of what a "superior" tent entailed in my experience.

Which is why I was trying to end the conversation. I don't think the game rules should try to cover everything and IMHO they don't need to.

So first things first, I wasn't offended by what you wrote in that post. I did not think you meant anyone any particular harm in writing it.

That said, it is hyperbolic, seemingly on purpose as a good-natured mockery of a position you disagree with. A lot of posts on this board are this way, some of mine included. Describing it as such, to me, does not seem like it should be an insult. That was the full extent of concern with that whole interaction.

On to the important bit..the shovel. Here is what I ultimately come down to. Digging a hole or trench is an adventuring task. A magic spell and a shovel are both tools that can be used to accomplish that task.

The same factors: soil water content, hardness, tree roots, whatever you want, exist for them both. Both tools could very justifiably suffer from that litany of environmental factors, and the accompanying DM variance in how those factors impact the PCs ability to do whatever they are doing.

But one tool (the magic spell) provides clear guidance on what can be accomplished with it and the other tool (the shovel) provides no guidance at all regarding what can be accomplished with it. Same task.. Same environmental factors.. both tools.. unnecessarily different levels of mechanical guidance.

To be fair, I completely understand your hesitation to want to write out one specific performance level for the shovel. I've dug enough holes to know that some are easier to than others. But, if the equipment in the book is supposed to be helpful for accomplishing a task, the player should have some reasonable idea for how it should be helpful.

Can PCs dig a hole without a shovel?
Is there some kind of check to dig a hole?
Does the shovel help PCs dig faster/deeper/better?
Does the shovel allow them to dig in places they ordinarily wouldn't be able to?

The game doesn't tell us any of that, and it could. It's the same way with the tent and the other gear folks have been complaining about.

Personally, I'd collect a bunch of these types of items into themed kits that could provide clearer, more explicit benefits to a party of adventurers without needing tool-level mechanics.

For a shovel, maybe it'd go into a "miners' kit" that includes a shovel, pickax, and other earthmoving tools. If a party has the kit, they can dig x dimensions in y time on all but solid stone (or something). If they don't, maybe its x/4 dimensions or y*4 time (or both), or maybe they can only dig in loose soil or something. And do the same thing with camping gear, survival gear, etc.

At the end of the day, if you've got 'x' kit, your party can enjoy 'y' benefit.

It cuts down on fiddliness in the character sheets and asinine arguments with the DM over stuff like how wet or stony the ground is. And it's fundamentally more realistic in the fiction too. Unless your characters are morons in the setting, they would know what kinds of stuff they'd need for a camping trip or an excavation or whatever else a helluva lot better rhan the players or the DM would.

But that's me personally.

In either case, I expect that if a piece (or kit) of equipment is going to be adventure-relevant, then the rules should somehow describe what PCs should expect out of them.

 

[Warpiglet-7]

The thread reads like what i said early on.

The D&D community in too diverse for the form of 5e that was published. It needs variant rules content and guide for them. WOTC's plan was to have 3PP cover that but for many reasons it did not work.

WOTC is essentially selling the best vanilla ice cream and is paying the local candy store and super market to stock ice cream toppings and sauces.

However fans do not want to go to another location for their sprinklers. And some aren't "allowed" to.

I have no desire to buy 5.5.

However if they included optional “modules” one could use or not for different sorts of campaigns I would be tempted.

 

[R_J_K75]

The D&D community in too diverse for the form of 5e that was published. It needs variant rules content and guide for them.

Yes!! I want D&D Lite, TASTE GREAT, LESS FILLING!

 

[R_J_K75]

the tent and the other gear folks have been complaining about

This is really a thing? Im not trying to be funny or mocking but is this an issue that people are complaining about?

 

[Oofta]

The fact that you think there is no cold rating for tents rather proves my point. A thin cloth tent will provide far less protection than one made of heavy leather - after all the insulation level of the tent means that the ambient temperature of the tent changes with the people in the ten.

That’s why arctic tents have liners.

So I do rather think you have nicely proven my point.

I have a summer tent and a 3 seasons tent. I've used old school canvas tents with no screens or bottoms. Heck, I've been tenting when a tornado touched down within a few miles. Twice. The D&D tent is made of canvas, not nylon. That means it's more like a 3 season tent.

But I stand by what I said. D&D isn't designed with the granularity were a few degrees will make a difference. If you need to survive freezing temperatures I'd expect characters to have winter gear, sleeping pad and blanket. They'll need either a tent or (depending on location) a survival check to build a snow shelter.

 

[Parmandur]

I dread to say this, but...the dMG does give some guidance on this sort of thing.

 

[Hussar]

It’s really interesting.

If you read this thread in its entirety it’s like a projective test.

Some people lament that 5e jettisoned the old. Some lament if kept too much of the old.

Now of course I realize it is more nuanced than that. It is particular old rules for particular people.

And the retort is “so what?! Old players are not the market!”

So revamp a game that does not change much…for whom? The dissatisfied will say it did not change enough or it changes too much and the new players have not been around long enough to know anything is wrong.

Happens every time. It’s all good until it’s not and then the exodus to the new edition ensues.

Oh absolutely. I can’t really blame WotC for trying to thread the needle here. They really are between a rock and a hard place.

As far as changes I’d like to see go. I know I lost this argument long ago.

 

[Hussar]

If your computer can handle it.

Mine completely froze when our DM tried using this.

Good grief. How old is your computer? Mine is an absolute dinosaur. It barely has a graphics card.

Maybe you internet was bad?