What are your thought on the Mystic Theurge?

[rgard]

Balanced and logical in theory, unbalanced and ridiculous in practice.

That's what I've found. I know that most people here disagree (nowadays) but that's what I have found, and that's one of the reasons it's absolutely disallowed in any game I GM, and something I will never select as a player.

Previous posters have mentioned why the class isn't as bad as may seem, mostly to do with being behind the primary cleric and primary wizard in high level spells.

For the flip side, how do you find that it is unbalanced? I'm assuming the ridiculous part is a matter of taste, but if you would like to comment on that please do.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Hypersmurf]

Previous posters have mentioned why the class isn't as bad as may seem, mostly to do with being behind the primary cleric and primary wizard in high level spells.

Yeah... I played an Arcane Heirophant in a game around 11th level. 4th level Druid and Wizard spells just didn't stack up next to the 6th level spells the Wizard and Cleric were throwing around - I found the class had a very underpowered feel to it.

His casting endurance was never tested, to be fair, and the setting didn't really let the Familiar Companion shine, but even so... that spellcasting endurance amounts to 5 or 6 4th level spells, while the pure casters had 8 or 9 spells 4th level and above. (More, if you count domain spells).

-Hyp.

 

[LightPhoenix]

Mechanically, it's a wreck IMO. Realistically though, that's a function of the terribly clunky magic system, which I really hope gets revamped in the next edition. If you use a CL akin to BAB, and assuming Cleric, Wizard, and MT all get +1/level, it's not AS bad, but still clunky.

In play, I've only ever seen two, but it wasn't overpowered at all.

My biggest theoretical problem, and I've never seen this so I don't know how it'd actually work, is if you do something like Wiz 7/Clr 3/MT 10, in which case you DO get 9th level spells, at the expense of 8th level spells in the other class. Has anyone has experience with this? I know it's a high-level thing.

 

[pawsplay]

I've more often seen Wiz 3/Cle 3/MT 10/PrC that provides single caster progression, which can actually be quite good, depending.

 

[Kormydigar]

There are two Mystic Theurge characters in the campaign I am running right now. The party is around 10th level and the wonder twins are very versatile casters. The party is starting to run into opponents with SR more often so they are beginning to see the other end of the balance scale. That combined with thier pathetic attempts to dispel magic against dedicated one class casters of thier level is causing them to have doubts about thier class choice decision.

 

[Plane Sailing]

My character will be starting as a Warmage 2/Cleric 1 and would have been WM4/Cl3 when I would have tried the PRC. I'm kinda stuck with that concept and can't see what other potential PRC's would be suitable to this kind of character. Any ideas out there?

Starting at that level and working up into MT I think it would be fine in a campaign. Someone did that in a campaign I was playing in, and by the time they actually got their first MT level they were actually pretty suboptimal anyway - the fact that they were, what, 1-2 spell levels below the top caster and didn't have any access to clerical spells that a party of our level was expecting popped the bubble of it being overpowered.

It might be a different story if someone was able to introduce a 15th level character that was a MT, but coming up through the ranks makes it much more acceptable IMO.

 

[Plane Sailing]

FWIW I think the MT is a poor solution to the actual problem - how do you multiclass spellcasters without them getting completely gimped.

I've actually come up with a simple game mechanics solution that is, to my mind, far more useful, scaleable and broadly applicable.

You can read the detailed discussion about it in this house rules thread here http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=166497

Here is the gist of it:

1. Caster level determines spells known and not just spell characteristics.

2. Caster level in any class = that classes caster level + half all other class levels (rounded down). Thus whether Sor10/Wiz10, Wiz10/Clr10, Clr10/Dru10, you have caster level 15 in each of your classes and have spells known and castable as per that. Note that for Clr10/Wiz10 this exactly mirrors what you would get with Clr5/Wiz5/Mystic Theurge10.

3. To avoid problems with grossly unequal levels (e.g. 18th level fighter taking 1 level Wizard ), your caster level can be no more than 50% more than your casting class level.

That leaves the 10/10 multiclass in the position that works OK, it stops the 18/1 multiclass from getting absurd and gives the following breakpoints (using ftr/wiz as an example).

Wiz20 = CL20
Ftr2/Wiz18 = CL19
Ftr4/Wiz16 = CL18
Ftr6/Wiz14 = CL17
Ftr8/Wiz12 = CL16
Ftr10/Wiz10 = CL15
Ftr11/Wiz9 = CL14
Ftr12/Wiz8 = CL12
Ftr13/Wiz7 = CL10
Ftr14/Wiz6 = CL9
Ftr16/Wiz4 = CL6
Ftr18/Wiz2 = CL3
Ftr19/Wiz1 = CL1
Ftr20 = CL0

For those who don't think there is a problem with caster multiclassing, move on, nothing to see here

For anyone who would like to try a non-prestige class, works from ground up solution, this one might be worth thinking about.

Cheers

 

[Choranzanus]

My first thought was that it is overpowered. But apparently I am not alone. Also, the name seems wrong; it should be swapped with thaumaturgist...?

 

[Particle_Man]

It is pretty weak, but you at least always have something you can do. It can be a general store goto magic dude in a small party, or a support dude in a large one. And yes, Practised Spellcaster is a very good feat to take...twice.

 

[Quartz]

For Wizard / Cleric, it's uber at Epic levels and pretty damn good at high levels, but very weak at low levels. One of the more interesting uses of Mystic Theurge is a wizard who takes 2-3 levels of Divine Crusader, then goes Mystic Theurge.

But a Wiz 3 / Clr 3 / MT 17 is a very nasty character indeed.

If you're looking for an uber spellcaster at L24, try Sor 4 / Mystic 4 / MT 16 - everything works off Cha. Add in Paladin levels later for extra goodness.