There's a whole role of them: Controllers. They prevent attacks and damage through their effects. A really durable guy who spends all his time in back saying "attack me instead" is kind of silly.
What Classes are Missing?
- Thread starter Rechan
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There's a whole role of them: Controllers. They prevent attacks and damage through their effects. A really durable guy who spends all his time in back saying "attack me instead" is kind of silly.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
It pretty much feels like a description of the wizard to me. Yes, a lot of people try to make damage dealing wizards, but the best ones by far are really exactly this sort of build. The guy that makes an area too slippery to cross, tangled in webs, icy, filled with poison gas, blocked by a wall of magical ice, etc.
Not that there couldn't be a different class which uses different flavor to do the same thing, but I'd want to see it have some unique mechanical differences.
One thing that often is neglected in these debates is aspects of the class outside of pure combat. I find it a negative feature of a lot of proposed class designs that its hard to think of good non-combat utilities and such for them that are really distinctive. Class design shouldn't focus totally on combat aspects of the class, though obviously that's going to be a very significant dimension.
I'm really still not picturing a class that focuses on being mounted. It definitely has quite a lot of OOC stuff going for it, but then is that really very distinct from what other characters can already do simply by having an ordinary mount? In combat the problem is just that situations where being mounted is really a credible advantage are tough to find when you look at the typical party. Its certainly possible to have 'mount powers' or 'mount power rider effects' etc. That provides a mechanical basis when combined with a mount class feature. The question is will it fit well in most games or not? If its not a fairly minor feature of the class its going to create some problems. As a fairly minor feature it almost seems better relegated to a build choice in one of the existing classes.
I think a lot of things like melee controller and ranged defender are just hard to distinguish from other existing classes and roles. They have also been nibbled around the edges a good bit already at best. A ranged defender is already a pretty good description of a swordmage for instance, even if it isn't always exactly that. Melee controller IMHO pretty accurately describes a fighter too. Sure they're called defenders, but they could as easily have been called melee controllers. Not that new and distinctive classes are impossible that might use these role designations but I'm still looking for one that's really compelling.
Maybe I'm just in the camp that feels like 'less is more' when it comes to classes. I'd rather see new builds than whole new classes.
Obryn
Hero
About the only one I'd really like to see is a Necromancer.
AFAIC, I don't think I need to have a class for every role... I also kinda sorta think that controllers and defenders basically fill the same role, and that the distinction is largely academic. Sure, there's the marking mechanics, but at range, that's just a debuff by another name.
-O
AFAIC, I don't think I need to have a class for every role... I also kinda sorta think that controllers and defenders basically fill the same role, and that the distinction is largely academic. Sure, there's the marking mechanics, but at range, that's just a debuff by another name.
-O
I want a Necromancer too. I'm sure that he won't be at all what I imagine, but I remain cautiously optimistic. It seems like some of the Necromancer got stolen by the wizard (Grasp of the Grave?!) and ths Shaman could work, suitably reflavored, as a base Necromancer. It is a class that comes with a ghost, for heaven's sake.
I imagine Necrotic damage is their thing, with some control effects for At-Wills. Encounters might summon minor incorporeal undead with auras or something, and Dailies summon or raise Zombies, Mummies, Skeletons, and other awesome stuff. I would dearly love to play a class like this.
I'm sure it will still rock.
Jay
I imagine Necrotic damage is their thing, with some control effects for At-Wills. Encounters might summon minor incorporeal undead with auras or something, and Dailies summon or raise Zombies, Mummies, Skeletons, and other awesome stuff. I would dearly love to play a class like this.
I'm sure it will still rock.
Jay
davethegame
Explorer
It's true to an extent- there's a Wizard in my game specializing in ice and illusion magic that does a fair amount of this, but a "wall-based" wizard build appeals to me for some reason. Maybe because it reminds me of the game Centipede.
Neonchameleon
Legend
Minion Maker Controller (and yes, Necromancer will probably fit).
Swashbucklers can be done assuming there's the Dexterity Warlord coming by any of a number of methods.
Ranged Divine Strikers can be done with damage-happy Invokers (and yes, Invokers of Wrath can be very damage happy).
Ranged Meatshields shouldn't exist. And Martial Controllers would be hard work (I'd need to use a reskinned Wizard/Alchemist I think).
More use of the space pointed out by Storm Pillar.
Swashbucklers can be done assuming there's the Dexterity Warlord coming by any of a number of methods.
Ranged Divine Strikers can be done with damage-happy Invokers (and yes, Invokers of Wrath can be very damage happy).
Ranged Meatshields shouldn't exist. And Martial Controllers would be hard work (I'd need to use a reskinned Wizard/Alchemist I think).
More use of the space pointed out by Storm Pillar.
Dr_Ruminahui
First Post
As an off topic aside, that's how I've built the Shaman I hope to someday play - the spirit is the ghost of one of the character's ancestors, and I've taken powers that either are (or are easily reskinned to be) the shaman calling up spirits to attack his enemies. I also plan to take ritual caster and take as many rituals as I can which I can describe as being spirits doing things rather than the PC. It will be a gnome (again, with the gnomish abilities described in terms of using spirits to do things), though fluffwise its actually a human whose growth has been stunted by the spirit companion, who feeds off of the shaman's life enermy in a parasitic/symbiotic relationship - for example, the shaman's HPs are actually the spirit lending the shaman back some of its reserves - any wounds the shaman takes actually appear on the spirit instead. I think it would be a lot of fun, but as I'm only in one game (and I like my Drow Sorceress), no chance to try him out yet.
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I made the thread about DMing with a mounted character; I linked it in the OP.
And there are really no "trap" spells. And no "I literally change the environment" spells - making pit traps that people have to avoid the entire combat, creating higher ground so PCs can retreat back, etc. Something that just doesn't wink out of existence, but changes the actual features of the room the PCs are in.
A character that can change the layout of the map itself is what I call battlefield control. Sure, there's spells that do crowd control (web, etc) but creating your own bottlenecks and so on is way more interesting tactically.
The wizard just doesn't go far enough. The new 2nd level At-Will that creates 1 square of difficult terrain is a step in the right direction, but the Wizard right now is a mile off.
But I said straight up in the OP that these might very well just be builds of existing classes. If WotC made the Shaper Wizard in Arcane Power 2, I'd eat it up.
I honestly feel the Wizard doesn't go far enough. He doesn't have enough walls.
And there are really no "trap" spells. And no "I literally change the environment" spells - making pit traps that people have to avoid the entire combat, creating higher ground so PCs can retreat back, etc. Something that just doesn't wink out of existence, but changes the actual features of the room the PCs are in.
A character that can change the layout of the map itself is what I call battlefield control. Sure, there's spells that do crowd control (web, etc) but creating your own bottlenecks and so on is way more interesting tactically.
The wizard just doesn't go far enough. The new 2nd level At-Will that creates 1 square of difficult terrain is a step in the right direction, but the Wizard right now is a mile off.
But I said straight up in the OP that these might very well just be builds of existing classes. If WotC made the Shaper Wizard in Arcane Power 2, I'd eat it up.
For the record, there will never be a Martial Controller. We're on PHB III and 2 settings books now, if anybody had a workable idea for one we would have seen it published by now. In fact, I'm pretty happy that there is none, because it keeps a certain kind of people in RPG forums busy with one issue I really don't care about.
When talking about a new class, two things are important:
- Represents a fantasy archetype (in a broad sense that includes everything from tolkinesque and fairy tales to steam punk and oriental settings)
- Unique mechanics
Where you place your idea on the source / role grid is a second thought. For example, an alchemist class is arcane similar to the artificer, not martial.
Can already be done with a Sorcerer. Next please.
Too similar to an Invoker, especially with the Convenant of Wrath. Note that the Avenger has a few ranged implement powers for some strange reason. It's possible that we'll see ranged Avenger builds at some point (Divine Power 2?)
A non-ranged defender is a controller.
Somewhat of a different story would be a defender similar to beast master ranger: You summon / control one big beastie that fulfills the defender role and takes hits, and you stand back. Such a class can be modeled after the Final Fantasy Summoner.
I like that one. The easiest way to achieve this one is a set of powers for the artificer, which is secondary controller anyway.
In any case this is not a new class, but rather a new build for fighter / paladin / ranger / barbarian / whatever class you want. You simply add a number of powers that have special effects when you're mounted.
The important part is that all powers and class features must be still valid when not mounted.
When talking about a new class, two things are important:
- Represents a fantasy archetype (in a broad sense that includes everything from tolkinesque and fairy tales to steam punk and oriental settings)
- Unique mechanics
Where you place your idea on the source / role grid is a second thought. For example, an alchemist class is arcane similar to the artificer, not martial.
Can already be done with a Sorcerer. Next please.
Too similar to an Invoker, especially with the Convenant of Wrath. Note that the Avenger has a few ranged implement powers for some strange reason. It's possible that we'll see ranged Avenger builds at some point (Divine Power 2?)
Defenders are melee by definition. It's what they do. You simply can't fill the defender role on range. The reason is that defenders need to do frontline battlefield control. They must get next to their enemies to prevent them from moving up to allies and attacking them. Only if you're adjacent you can draw melee attacks from soldiers, brutes, skirmishers and lurkers.
A non-ranged defender is a controller.
Somewhat of a different story would be a defender similar to beast master ranger: You summon / control one big beastie that fulfills the defender role and takes hits, and you stand back. Such a class can be modeled after the Final Fantasy Summoner.
I like that one. The easiest way to achieve this one is a set of powers for the artificer, which is secondary controller anyway.
Druid and Wizard already do this.
The only way to handle a mounted class is similar to the Druid, a class with two modes mounted / unmounted.
In any case this is not a new class, but rather a new build for fighter / paladin / ranger / barbarian / whatever class you want. You simply add a number of powers that have special effects when you're mounted.
The important part is that all powers and class features must be still valid when not mounted.
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