D&D 5E What direction should 5th edition take?

eriktheguy

First Post
My take:

1) Get rid of sameness. This is the #1 complaint of my players. Many of them want to jump to Pathfinder and the only reason they are not doing so is because we wanted a campaign to start at level 1 and go to level 30. That and the fact that everyone has spent so much money on 4E books (as DM, I probably spent over $400). A Fighter does indeed feel like other classes due to similarities of powers. Need an area effect, a Fighter can accomplish this. The major #1 offender of this is that nearly all powers are damaging powers. Yawn. My players want many more powers that do not do damage, but affect the environment or conditions of the foes or some such.

My interpretation is that there needs to be fewer abilities that allow certain classes/roles to perform the same attacks as other classes/roles. For example, a Sorcerer gets an at-will burst 1 that does more damage than a wizards similar powers (blazing star fall with the bonus damage from the sorcerers class feature). Giving them the ability to perform as well as the wizard at its own role makes the classes too samey. They are no longer distinct because they can all do everything. I agree with you in that these powers should at least be nerfed. For example, fighters have plenty of multi-target and burst attacks, but most of them have limited range and/or limited number of targets, so the fighter cannot hit as many targets as the controller. I would like to see more stuff like this. Most non-healer classes never get healing powers, so why do strikers deserve controller powers.
I would still like to see classes have powers available not associated with their class roles, but they should be weaker than those associated with their roles.
 

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eriktheguy

First Post
This would be a suitable basic ability score system for 5e (which we discussed earlier). It eliminates scores 10 and below, and simplifies by eliminating odd scores. Don't post arguing that odd scores are necessary for feat requirements. Feat requirements were made odd so that odd scores would be relevant. Don't post arguing that Removing odd scores messes with ability score advancement as you level. Ability score advancement was built around the ability score system this edition, and would be changed to fit the ability score system next edition.
Any other harsh criticism? Fire away!

Each score starts at zero. Instead of having a score from 10-18 and having an ability modifier, you have a score from 0-4 and simply add your ability score to rolls. A score of 1, 2, 3, 4 costs the same as a modifier of +1, 2, 3, 4 under the default rules.
22 points
Score /Cost
1/2
2/5
3/9
4/16
 

DracoSuave

First Post
Most non-healer classes never get healing powers, so why do strikers deserve controller powers.

If you feel sorcerers shouldn't get AoE damage nukes, then I suspect you might not understand what the sorcerer shtick is.

Yes, they should be out-damaging wizards. Wizards out-control them. This is back from when Sorcerers were controllers during design. Eventually tho, Sorcerer was changed to a primary damage focus to distinguish them from wizards.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
  • Keep team play central to the game... but give more guidelines for lower player count play.
  • Do not throw away class play balance in favor of specialized rule sets for every class. More options especially with a more complex frame to hang them on generally means more "show time" in game. My soldiers tactics shouldn't be over shadowed by his "wizards" spells or be boringly easy to take over "I attack" should never be encouraged.
  • Keep the impact of character position and environmental features, its a very definite game element and keeps players aware of the game/battlefield environment If fighting is a signficant game feature = position is vital both for those who want to envision the action... abd those who want there game choices to have some impact.
  • Speaking of game choices provide more at-wills (and allow more to be used), establish these are the basis for other effects and show how they can benefit from environment interactions.
  • Improve customization options on Character Builder (For one I want to be able to give an object the power of multiple objects and I want any and all elements reskinnable and those reskinnings to become part of a local database and so reuseable)
  • Do provide DM's more guidelines on customizing there game worlds, settings and features (show how wish lists can be fullfilled in varied ways to express elements within the game world)
  • Upgrade reskinning by giving more versatile skinning examples for various powers
  • Do provide more varied methods to enable re-use of powers (reuse can accelerate the game flow for those who want to resolve conflicts faster ... and isnt necessarily repetitive - see reskinning)
  • Do not allow a single class or pair of classes to overwhelm others for the sake of some previous games versatility holy grail.
  • Do not make a wizard pull out throwing darts to contribute to the battle -- he should be able to feel like a wizard all the time (oh yeah that was one of my ideas for AD&D already implemented -- keep that).
  • Do create your own design goals and follow them as decisively as you did in 4e.
  • Do keep developing 4e - I am particularly fond of some of these alternate rewards previewed just recently they are intriguing.
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
There is no way to say anthing to this without sounding snarky or like I am attacking you personally. It just sounds like your list of changes are a huge rewind to 3.5 and its way of thinking.

No worries. We can disagree without being disagreeable.

I do not like the sameness (or homogenous in the main forum) argument. I don't see it, and I think it is a forest and trees problem. If you see PC's as a collection of their abilities, then they look the same. If you see them as individuals with different abilities that are built around a common framework, they are different. It is easy to say "Sorcerer and Fighter have 2 at wills, 3 encounters, and 3 dailies, they are the same!" without actually looking at what those powers *do* or considering how they interact with their class abilities and their behavior in combat.

It's a matter of game combat preference. Every single one of my players with the exception of my wife see the problem. My wife doesn't see the problem because she doesn't care. She is there to socialize and doesn't care what the rules are. So 5 players plus the DM see the problem and 1 player does not. Even the player of the Cleric who claims that she doesn't care what the rules are is very annoyed at Healing Surges because her Cleric cannot heal a PC who is out of Healing Surges. She does actually strongly (and negatively) care about some rules, even though she just wants to play the game and not care about any of the rules.

So although you do not see the issue, we do. It still makes it a valid issue for WotC to consider when designing the next version. And WotC claimed for 4E that it was taking into consideration the game elements that players had problems with, so why wouldn't they do that for 5E?

Yes, the Invoker could Daze more than most other classes in our campaign. But, both the Fighter and the Swordmage mark foes and they conflict with each other. The Bard slides characters and debuffs. The Cleric heals and buffs. The Druid nickels foes to death.

But it's almost all "roll to hit, roll damage and throw a little side effect on". The vast majority of powers.

There are very few summoning spells. There are very few illusions to fool foes. There are very few charms to beguil and control foes.

And the ones that are there are mostly damage dealing spells with the keyword illusion attached to it or keyword charm attached to it where the illusion or charm is almost nonexistent.

The entire game now revolves around doing hit point damage.


There are very few ways to fly above the battle. There are very few ways to invisibly sneak past foes.


And this is not a 3.5 way of thinking, although 3.5 had these game elements. It's a way of thinking that allows for player creativity outside of just doing damage to foes. Tricking them instead of (or alongside of) merely damaging them.

Most encounters in World of Warcraft revolve around doing damage and only doing damage in combat. Most encounters in 4E revolve around doing damage and only doing damage in combat. This does not have to be the model and 3.5 and earlier versions of the game system allowed for other models.

4E is a very narrowly focused FRPG and some people prefer a less narrow of a focus.

You might consider re-adding some of the earlier concepts as going backwards in design. I consider taking the best of both the earlier models and the new model and combining them as going forward in design and getting the best of both worlds.

Pathfinder is so successful because it takes some new "gain something at every level for all classes" concept and adds it to a tried and true older model. WotC could learn something from that.

Not all ideas are good ideas, regardless of whether WotC wrote them down in a book (as an example, Battlerage Vigor is an extremely terrible idea balance-wise, mechanically just adds more bookkeeping, and didn't take minions into account). Many of the 4E game mechanics are inferior mechanics (e.g. effects that end until the start or end of the attacker's turn are merely bookkeeping efforts).


As for the "without actually looking at what those powers *do*" argument, I find that a bit condescending. My side of the discussion does take that into account, we just find it to be a minor aspect and not the defining aspect of most powers.

What most standard action powers do is damage plus a minor effect. The fact that one minor effect is a slide and one is a buff and one is a debuff and one is a heal does add a bit of non-homogenousness. But the damage is the primary effect here. If these same powers did not have the side effect, players might still take them if the damage is high enough. If these same powers did not do any damage, most players would not take them because sliding a foe a few squares is a very minor aspect of combat.

In 4E, damage is King and that is why the minor non-homogenousness of effects still feels homogenous. The damage is homogenous. And, there is little difference between buffing an ally's to hit, debuffing a foe's defense, and sliding a foe into flank. All of these improve the chance to hit. They are merely different game mechanics to achieve more or less the same thing. Identical, no. Similar, yes.


One aspect of what was lost with the 4E model is the lack of spell casting PCs to select from a large list of spells. The homogenous aspect is that the players who enjoyed large numbers of choices now have their PC limited to the point of being crippled for that player. WotC could have a system of selecting x powers out of 5x powers for those types of players and the player would still be limited to x powers at any point in time, just like the non-spell casting PCs.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
WotC could have a system of selecting x powers out of 5x powers for those types of players and the player would still be limited to x powers at any point in time, just like the non-spell casting PCs.
And the tactical warlord type does he get 5x powers to chose from and in a general sense why not the non spell using people? why, pardon me but I dont see anything magic specific about the argument, my warrior wants to do a wide set of cool moves and shake em up all the time.... you only do your argument disservice in my book by clinging to conventions which resulted in wizards out shining everyone at high levels.
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
You might consider re-adding some of the earlier concepts as going backwards in design. I consider taking the best of both the earlier models and the new model and combining them as going forward in design and getting the best of both worlds.

It seems to me some of your ideas about what constituted "best ofs".. are intimately tied up with what were the "worst ofs" all the way back in AD&D.

Kind of like how people seem to simultaneously say multiclassing in 3e gave me a character designed exactly the way I wanted him... but he was either a wimp or synergy freak depending.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
My side of the discussion does take that [What a power does?] into account, we just find it to be a minor aspect and not the defining aspect of most powers.
So what powers do is not a defining aspect... I must have missed something.

Interestingly simplistic and broadly defined hit points taken to there appropriate conclusion make sense wrapped up in so many effects even a few things currently which don't do hit points might make more sense if they did...
Think about it---
Anything which demoralizes, fatigues, and more pointedly runs the enemy out of luck as fate tries to intervene at its root makes you easier to kill and easier to knock unconscious... should cause hit point loss. ..

I have a hard time imagining heroic luck not striving to intervene against most of the powers used against a character... Villainous luck is in a similar basket of course and for the worshipers of avandra luck is only a lady some times... the rest of the time she is a b**ch.
 
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KarinsDad

Adventurer
Forced movement is how "tricking them" is primarily described mechanically in 4e

Yup.

That's AMAZING!

I tricked him into moving a square. Woo hoo. :lol:


Gotta love how "Come and Get It" tricks anything. It's merely forced movement. If the foe does not WANT to move and is a demi-god that cannot be tricked by foolish mortals, he still moves.
 

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