D&D 5E What direction should 5th edition take?

eriktheguy

First Post
No worries. We can disagree without being disagreeable.



It's a matter of game combat preference. Every single one of my players with the exception of my wife see the problem. My wife doesn't see the problem because she doesn't care. She is there to socialize and doesn't care what the rules are. So 5 players plus the DM see the problem and 1 player does not. Even the player of the Cleric who claims that she doesn't care what the rules are is very annoyed at Healing Surges because her Cleric cannot heal a PC who is out of Healing Surges. She does actually strongly (and negatively) care about some rules, even though she just wants to play the game and not care about any of the rules.

So although you do not see the issue, we do. It still makes it a valid issue for WotC to consider when designing the next version. And WotC claimed for 4E that it was taking into consideration the game elements that players had problems with, so why wouldn't they do that for 5E?

Yes, the Invoker could Daze more than most other classes in our campaign. But, both the Fighter and the Swordmage mark foes and they conflict with each other. The Bard slides characters and debuffs. The Cleric heals and buffs. The Druid nickels foes to death.

But it's almost all "roll to hit, roll damage and throw a little side effect on". The vast majority of powers.

There are very few summoning spells. There are very few illusions to fool foes. There are very few charms to beguil and control foes.

And the ones that are there are mostly damage dealing spells with the keyword illusion attached to it or keyword charm attached to it where the illusion or charm is almost nonexistent.

The entire game now revolves around doing hit point damage.


There are very few ways to fly above the battle. There are very few ways to invisibly sneak past foes.


And this is not a 3.5 way of thinking, although 3.5 had these game elements. It's a way of thinking that allows for player creativity outside of just doing damage to foes. Tricking them instead of (or alongside of) merely damaging them.

Most encounters in World of Warcraft revolve around doing damage and only doing damage in combat. Most encounters in 4E revolve around doing damage and only doing damage in combat. This does not have to be the model and 3.5 and earlier versions of the game system allowed for other models.

4E is a very narrowly focused FRPG and some people prefer a less narrow of a focus.

You might consider re-adding some of the earlier concepts as going backwards in design. I consider taking the best of both the earlier models and the new model and combining them as going forward in design and getting the best of both worlds.

Pathfinder is so successful because it takes some new "gain something at every level for all classes" concept and adds it to a tried and true older model. WotC could learn something from that.

Not all ideas are good ideas, regardless of whether WotC wrote them down in a book (as an example, Battlerage Vigor is an extremely terrible idea balance-wise, mechanically just adds more bookkeeping, and didn't take minions into account). Many of the 4E game mechanics are inferior mechanics (e.g. effects that end until the start or end of the attacker's turn are merely bookkeeping efforts).


As for the "without actually looking at what those powers *do*" argument, I find that a bit condescending. My side of the discussion does take that into account, we just find it to be a minor aspect and not the defining aspect of most powers.

What most standard action powers do is damage plus a minor effect. The fact that one minor effect is a slide and one is a buff and one is a debuff and one is a heal does add a bit of non-homogenousness. But the damage is the primary effect here. If these same powers did not have the side effect, players might still take them if the damage is high enough. If these same powers did not do any damage, most players would not take them because sliding a foe a few squares is a very minor aspect of combat.

In 4E, damage is King and that is why the minor non-homogenousness of effects still feels homogenous. The damage is homogenous. And, there is little difference between buffing an ally's to hit, debuffing a foe's defense, and sliding a foe into flank. All of these improve the chance to hit. They are merely different game mechanics to achieve more or less the same thing. Identical, no. Similar, yes.


One aspect of what was lost with the 4E model is the lack of spell casting PCs to select from a large list of spells. The homogenous aspect is that the players who enjoyed large numbers of choices now have their PC limited to the point of being crippled for that player. WotC could have a system of selecting x powers out of 5x powers for those types of players and the player would still be limited to x powers at any point in time, just like the non-spell casting PCs.

This post seems a lot clearer and more informed than your earlier list. Your suggesting that having multiple classes use the same mechanics to describe their moves is a boring way to deal with things. If the fighter with a shield pushes, and the wizard with illusions pushes, then suddenly the illusion doesn't seem 'magical' anymore. Additionally, multiple classes that mark do not work well together (I disagree with this, multiple defenders should choose separate targets to help control the battlefield). I think Wizards 'rewrite every spell as an attack' technique may be useful for some powers, but was overdone to death in this edition. Dominate person should not be a psychic attack that does some damage and makes the enemy lose a turn, it should be an attack that literally attempts to dominate a foe. It should be extremely dangerous for the enemy in question, so proper balance is necessary. Perhaps the spell is a daily, and maybe the caster is helpless while they control the dominated foe. In any case I would love to see real illusions, charms, etc in 5e. Basically, I would love for wizards to be able to cast spells again without needing rituals. I Would love to see the large spell lists back again too.
 

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KarinsDad

Adventurer
It seems to me some of your ideas about what constituted "best ofs".. are intimately tied up with what were the "worst ofs" all the way back in AD&D.

Examples?

Kind of like how people seem to simultaneously say multiclassing in 3e gave me a character designed exactly the way I wanted him... but he was either a wimp or synergy freak depending.

You must be confusing me with someone who is merely pro-3.5.

I am not anti-4E. I am anti-inferior game mechanics design.

4E has that is spades. 3.5 had that in spades.

As an example, milestones is just a bookkeeping exercise. There is no reason to control how many daily powers a character uses.

The Prince of the land should own 10 magic items and be able to use all of the Dailies from those items in the first encounter of the day.

It's bad design under the guise of game balance.
 

eriktheguy

First Post
Since this thread brought up the question of healing surges/milestones, what does everyone think should be the limiting factor in the adventuring day for 5e? In 3e, the adventuring day was limited by HP, and daily spells (of which we had many). It could be artificially extended by potions/wands/scrolls (basically, by money).
In 4e, the day was limited by healing surges, and daily spells, and could not be artificially extended. Having a long adventuring day was encouraged by giving you an additional action point and allowing an additional item daily at a milestone.

Some of you are against surges. I like that the adventuring day is no longer controlled by money (potions/scrolls) as it was in 3e, so what does everyone else think? Are there alternative systems that can limit the adventuring day without encouraging a full rest after every fight and without using the unattractive surge system?
 

KarinsDad

Adventurer
Your suggesting that having multiple classes use the same mechanics to describe their moves is a boring way to deal with things. If the fighter with a shield pushes, and the wizard with illusions pushes, then suddenly the illusion doesn't seem 'magical' anymore.

Precisely. Everything is a power and nothing differentiates spells. Magic really isn't often that special in 4E.

Additionally, multiple classes that mark do not work well together (I disagree with this, multiple defenders should choose separate targets to help control the battlefield).

While this is true if there are multiple foes and the defenders are spread out a bit, it is less true if there are few foes and/or the defenders are targeting the same foe.

I think Wizards 'rewrite every spell as an attack' technique may be useful for some powers, but was overdone to death in this edition. Dominate person should not be a psychic attack that does some damage and makes the enemy lose a turn, it should be an attack that literally attempts to dominate a foe. It should be extremely dangerous for the enemy in question, so proper balance is necessary. Perhaps the spell is a daily, and maybe the caster is helpless while they control the dominated foe. In any case I would love to see real illusions, charms, etc in 5e. Basically, I would love for wizards to be able to cast spells again without needing rituals. I Would love to see the large spell lists back again too.

Agreed.

Rituals were done to death in 4E and the main downside of them is that players, or at least my players, don't want to often use them because they cost to do so.

I can count on one hand the number of rituals that were used in our games since 4E came out that were not magic item rituals. For one thing, the players just forget about them.
 


KarinsDad

Adventurer
Some of you are against surges. I like that the adventuring day is no longer controlled by money (potions/scrolls) as it was in 3e, so what does everyone else think? Are there alternative systems that can limit the adventuring day without encouraging a full rest after every fight and without using the unattractive surge system?

I have an action point house rule (2 action points per encounter) that allows the PC to swap back in an encounter power for an action point, get an extra action (limited to one per encounter), or use an action point instead of a healing surge when magically healed (i.e. via potion or spell, not second winds).

This has worked well in our game because the PCs are only slightly more powerful and versatile because of it, but they can have 8 or more encounters in a day if the players use their action points wisely. However, some players rarely use the action points for a healing surge and we still end up in situations where most of the PCs are fine, but one or two PCs are low on healling sugres and want to stop for the day. But, dailies are typically the limiting factor for us.


I think the game would be ok without healing surges at all. There really is no strong balance need for them. Dailies would still limit the game to x number of encounters. However, some players might not like the concept of being healed up the entire way for every single new encounter. That does seem a bit artificial.
 

AllisterH

First Post
I think the game would be ok without healing surges at all. There really is no strong balance need for them. Dailies would still limit the game to x number of encounters. However, some players might not like the concept of being healed up the entire way for every single new encounter. That does seem a bit artificial.

This kind of makes no sense since as long as magic items can be bought/created, without surges, as the earlier poster mentioned, you're going to be at maximum for every encounter as long as you have the cash (wands of lesser vigor/cure light wounds)
 


KarinsDad

Adventurer
This kind of makes no sense since as long as magic items can be bought/created, without surges, as the earlier poster mentioned, you're going to be at maximum for every encounter as long as you have the cash (wands of lesser vigor/cure light wounds)

How so? I'm not understanding what you mean here.

Surges is one factor for limiting encounters, but Dailies is another. But who wants to limit encounters anyway. There should be fewer limits on encounters per day, not more. IMO.

Without surges, money would still be a limiting factor (I know my players do not want to spend a lot on healing resources).

And, the number of heals per encounter is still limited to powers.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Examples?

3) you seem to "actively want" the game to encourage the following sequence. Characterization dropping all subtleties...

"I hit it with my sword" snooze... "I hit it with my sword" snooze
here somebody take over my character... not a problem we
can say "I hit it with my sword" in between getting to make all
the interesting choices with the interest effects... you go take a nap

That is for me a worst of from earlier versions it made game play terrible..
show time was lopsided at low levels the wizard was a one shot wonder and just about pointless... at highlevels he made everyone pointless (except his slave priest).. uber versatility and vaguely defined illusions and wish magics you are talking with such glowing terms about was the cause... of the bad element of characters being marginalized. Ultra versatile illusions are battlefield wish spells in disguise.

High count durations are annoying and easy to loose track of - and you claim to not like book-keeping sheesh... that sounds like a worst of to me. effects which last the duration of an encounter work fine.
 

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