What do you think about action points?

[Victim]

You've summed up my thoughts on the matter fairly well. In order for APs to inspire action and have a chance to create a "pulp" atmosphere, they need to:

A. Grant a more significant bonus, thus making cinematic actions more likely to succeed.

B. Refresh more frequently, thus making frequent cinematic actions possible.

I think that they also need not be better used as additional bonuses on efficient actions. Otherwise, they'll be used to say increase damage per round rather than encouraging daring stunts.

 

[The Grackle]

I Like them in M&M and True20 b/c they're an essential part of the system. In D&D they seem kind of tacked on.

The think I like about hero points in Mutants and Masterminds is they let you stuff you normally couldn't do. You can use any feat or any stunt for one round. I use action points (the UA version anyway, I don't know about eberron) in a WLD game and we just use them for important saves. Not exciting.

 

[jdrakeh]

I think that they also need not be better used as additional bonuses on efficient actions. Otherwise, they'll be used to say increase damage per round rather than encouraging daring stunts.

Good call, but. . . I'd change "efficient" to "cool" or "exciting". Efficiency isn't a hallmark of action/adventure genres. Indeed, I can't think of too many times (if any) that Indiana Jones or The Shadow were overly concerned with efficiency and practicality when taking action

 

[Agamon]

I prefer Mutants and Mastermind's Hero Points.

QFT. M&M's HPs are well done. APs are but one of the things I don't like about Eberron, and UA's version isn't much better.

 

[Victim]

Good call, but. . . I'd change "efficient" to "cool" or "exciting". Efficiency isn't a hallmark of action/adventure genres. Indeed, I can't think of too many times (if any) that Indiana Jones or The Shadow were overly concerned with efficiency and practicality when taking action

That's what I mean. You want action points to incentivize cool or exciting things. You don't want them to just add another bonus on to whatever action you'd ordinarily take. If you have powerful, quickly refreshing AP, you don't want them to simply provide a boost to damage in most situations. Creating a useful distinction in this area seems like it'd be problematic.

 

[Nyeshet]

I haven't much used action points as yet, as I am still considering when and how they can and should be used, gained, lost, etc.

One idea I've been playing with trying is the idea of Luck points. In effect, if the character is about to make a check where they cannot succeed with 'taking 10' and there is a penalty for failure - whether this be a skill check, a save, an attack, etc, they could choose to put aside a point or more (I've not yet decided whether more than one can be put aside at a time.), thus worsening their chances of success. But later, when faced with *any* (even if they have no penalty for failure or can take a ten for success) skill check, attack, save, etc, they can then use that luck point to have a better chance of success.

In the long run, they would, in effect, make their own luck - by first taking a chance at bad luck occurring.

As an example, a character is about to jump a pit and needs to roll at least a 12 to succeed. They could choose to increase the DC by +1, requiring a 13 to succeed at the jump.

Later, when poisoned perhaps, they need to make a fort save. They add the +1 luck point they gained earlier to their roll, in effect reducing the DC by 1.

Or perhaps they are making a perform check to get a coin or two so as to buy a room at an inn, and they want to increase their result - and thus how much they will get from the perform check.

Or perhaps they are making an attack, requiring an 8 to hit, and wish to have a little extra help in making the hit.


The only problem that comes to mind with this system is that it is quite arguable as to whether losing a point from a skill check should count equal to losing / gaining a point in a save or attack. Does increasing the chance of failing a reflex save by 1 equal gaining a +1 to a later attack? What about a +1 to a knowledge check or a Spot check?

Anyway, this is just an idea I've been playing with for a while. I may try it out the next time the group starts a new quest. (It would be odd adding a new rule in the middle of a current quest, I think.)

 

[jdrakeh]

If you have powerful, quickly refreshing AP, you don't want them to simply provide a boost to damage in most situations.

Honestly, that isn't necessarily a bad thing from my point of view, but I agree that is not the only thing I would want players spending APs for. I guess my players simply don't see causing lots of damage as the be all end all of character goals so, for me and my groups, this is a non-issue.

 

[el-remmen]

Since I run a gritty-flavored moderate magic game, action dice (we don't call them action points) are really useful and appreciated by the players.

I also use Hero Points - but both the action dice and hero points work differently than I hear most people describe them b/c I just made them up myself before any of those settings or supplements that detail them came out - or at least before I ever heard of them.

They works as follows:

Action dice are always a d6.

They can be used one of two ways:

• At the time of any die roll (i.e. attack roll, damage roll, ability check, skill check, saving throw, spell resistance roll, critical hit confirmation roll, or critical result check) the player may announce that he is using an action die, rolling the d6 at the same time and adding the result. Regardless of the result the action die is immediately lost. The declaration about the use of an action die must be made before the roll is made, and only one action die may be used per d20 roll.
• They can be used as temporary hit points that last one round. This can even be done when a character is disabled or mortally wounded to become temporarily conscious, or to keep from dying. This can be done at any time, even on someone else's turn.

Action dice are awarded in two ways:

• At least one die (and up to three) are awarded with experience points, based on the heroic actions and good role-playing of the player.
• In addition, the DM may award an action die at any time during the game for a cinematic or heroic act.

A character may never have more action dice than his level + 1. Action dice acquired in excess of this number are immediately lost. Players are advised to spend action dice regularly to avoid wasting earned action dice in this manner.

Exploding Action Dice: Some spells or abilities make action dice into exploding action dice. This means any time a '6' is rolled on an action die, it can be immediately rolled again and the result added to the bonus. As long as sixes are rolled, you may continue to roll and add the result.

Hero Points

A hero point can be traded in at any time that calls for a d20 roll and counts as a natural 20. This includes, attacks, saves, and critical hit confirmation.

Hero Points are awarded for acts of extreme heroism and selflessnes, or keeping true to your character when it may have led to your character's death.

A hero point may be awarded posthumously and benefit the next character a player uses, but a character that dies with an unused hero point does not have it transfer to a new character.

Hero points are only ever granted with experience points.

Note that since we use an alternate form of stabilizing, involving a DC 18 Con check, bother Action Dice and Hero Points are very helpful for these.

Also, about half the time I award XP not every one goes up a level, and I only award XP between adventures.

 

[Jer]

Here is a thread where Piratecat posts his action point system. It's about halfway down the second page.

Thanks for finding that Thaumaturge - those are some good ideas for APs (I also just level characters roughly every dozen sessions or so depending on how the group does, so the ideas for using APs as a substitute for XP are especially interesting to me).

As for my use of APs - I introduced them into my game to pump up the action, even though I'm not running Eberron right now. One thing that I do is instead of allowing a d6 to be added to a roll, I allow them to turn a failure into a minimal success. They can use them on anything that requires a d20 roll, even attack rolls if they feel that they must. They can even spend them on a roll where they don't know the DC of the check to guarantee a minimal success (like on a particularly critical Spot or Listen check). I also let them bump a normal hit up to a critical by spending an AP. My players don't tend to abuse this -- since they tend to forget that they even HAVE APs until they reach a point where they are going to fail if they don't use them, so it works out. I'm not sure how well it would generalize to other groups, though.

 

[molonel]

QFT. M&M's HPs are well done. APs are but one of the things I don't like about Eberron, and UA's version isn't much better.

I've never played M&M. If it's not too much trouble, would those of you more familiar with the game mind explaining briefly how they are better?

I'm genuinely interested.