What Do You Think Of As "Modern TTRPG Mechanics"?

I don't want to put words into your mouth, but the general problem sounds like a perennial one: a lot of stuff is not well-designed.

While generally true, there's a tendency for people grabbing an extent base system to decide it can just do what they want it to without doing any lifting with popular systems that may make that actually worse than with custom built systems. At least I've seen it more than once with Savage Worlds or D&D 5e based games. I haven't seen enough PbtA based games up-close to know how often its happening there, but it wouldn't shock me.
 

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While generally true, there's a tendency for people grabbing an extent base system to decide it can just do what they want it to without doing any lifting with popular systems that may make that actually worse than with custom built systems. At least I've seen it more than once with Savage Worlds or D&D 5e based games. I haven't seen enough PbtA based games up-close to know how often its happening there, but it wouldn't shock me.
Misaligned PbtA games have already been mentioned. Same is true for FitD games. People don't necessarily understand why the original games work well for that they do. They may misunderstand the underlying principles, design choices made, game mechanics, and how those things contribute to the overall whole. Misunderstanding Moves in PbtA is a particularly egregious issue. They don't necessarily understand how some changes made to the game can have other knock on effects to the game's feel. So for every good non-AW PbtA game out there (e.g., Stonetop, Masks, Thirsty Sword Lesbians, etc.) there are nine half-baked ones. So Sturgeon's Law and all that.

I do think that an increased trend of some contemporaneous games (obviously not all: e.g., OSR, D&D, etc.) has been the authors sometimes saying "please play this game rules as written first before making changes all willy nilly." It's an appeal to understand the game on its own terms. Some people make changes to a game, say that the game played horribly, but when you find out what they changed, it's pretty clear why they had a horrible time. (Those aforementioned knock on effects caused by changes to the game.)
 

IMHO, the Daggerheart core "engine" has a lot of potential as a basis for other games (see PbtA, FitD, etc.), but I'm not necessarily sure if that means it would make for a good singular generic system.

I certainly understand your point regarding multiple domain card sets, but I also think that you have to do more work to make it work for these other settings or genre types. There is a range of settings/genres where it would take minimal work due to things like tone, content, the normalization of combat, etc.

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I am personally at the point of my hobby journey where I prefer my TTRPGs to be opinionated.

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FWIW, I do think that Daggerheart has opinions. It just also has to be somewhat careful because I think the designers are aware that a sizeable chunk of its incoming playerbase is coming from a relatively (IMHO) unopinionated game: i.e., 5e D&D. It's more opinionated than D&D but it's less opinionated IMHO than games like Apocalypse World, Stonetop, Fabula Ultima (as previously mentioned), or even some OSR games.

Honestly, a discussion of Opinionated vs. Unopinionated Games (and all between) would make for an interesting discussion.
I think the idea of this thread was "mechanics". So I think it's a very strong argument that has not yet been refuted, that rules will greatly aid a game in the way it plays, the way players can and cannot interact with it. And the types of plots or events that work very well in it, and ones that don't.

D&D does not do gunplay well at all, so it was never made with the intent of having guns feel like anything at all. It's an extreme example, but it is a way to describe how - when a game does not have rules which are designed with intent towards some gameplay or thematic goal, the game won't do it at all or very well.

So intent makes sense here, and it informs the player/GM what the overall goals were of the mechanics.

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Games whose intent was just to have a unified mechanic to make a ruling, such as GURPS states as its intent, tend to not do well when folks look for highly themed games.
To me, it seems that a RPG can have an opinion, or an intent, even though it doesn't set out to have one. I say this not to disagree with the two quoted posts, but to elaborate upon the perspective from which I agree with them.

Upthread I said that GURPS has a theme/goal: "to express a certain way of thinking about the world, and how action within the world produces results". I could equally have called that an opinion. And it colours what sort of play is possible with GURPS. Just as one example, I think GURPS will not provide a play experience in which providence, or divine purpose, is an essential part of the fiction, because it brings with it the idea that events unfold through impersonal, "merely" causal processes. Even if the participants decide to suspend the rules to permit a "miracle" to occur, that is the intervention of a miracle from outside the normal way the world works; it doesn't make the miraculous a part of the everyday workings of the world.

@Aldarc gives the example of normalised combat in Daggerheart; and @RenleyRenfield the example of normalised melee (vis-a-vis gunfire or even, to be honest, bow shots) in D&D. These are ways those games have opinions (in this case, about the significance and the nature of violent confrontation) that colour the experience they are able to provide.

@loverdrive gave another example upthread, of how ignoring these sorts of implicit opinions can lead to games that don't deliver what they purport to deliver:
It's very, very rarely I see a PbtA game that seems to understand how the engine works, and what it's good at.

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Most of the time I see games about slow tense investigations or cute fluffy friendship is magic adventures or deep character explorations being built on top of a resolution system specifically geared towards making sure that everything will always go downhill and all and any situation can instantly break out in violence.
And probably the most famous example of a game that contained an implicit opinion that contradicted its purported design goal was V:tM (which has also been discussed in this thread).

One thing that "modern" RPG design involves, when done well, is being highly sensitive to these "opinions" that are implicit in a system, and (to mix my metaphors) going with the grain rather than against it. The game is coherently designed so that (to further mix the metaphors) everything about it pushes in the same direction.

The typically-offered solution to a game that is not designed so that everything pushes the same way is the GM: the GM will make the game their own, by picking and choosing, by foregrounding some bits and backgrounding others. But this doesn't avoid opinion: it just offers another, particular, type of play experience - the GM-driven story or the GM-mediated world. Which is neither the pinnacle nor the totality of what RPGing can be.

Action Adventure is still a theme, but it is a wider scope than Lara Croft. The narrower your scope, the more the mechanics can hone in on that theme, the more generic, the less they can.

So saying that ‘intent’ only means covering a narrow scope in the mechanics, but supporting that scope well to me is wrong. I can very well intend to cover a wider scope and the resulting design still is intentional
What I've written above in this post explains why I'm reasonably sceptical about this idea that some intents are wider in scope. I mean, they can vary in the range of fictional situations they will support (Burning Wheel is probably a bit less narrow than Agon 2e in this respect, though the latter can be and has been adapted to other sorts of fictional situation than Homeric Greece). But their implicit opinions/intents will still tend to produce a particular sort of experience.
 

@Aldarc gives the example of normalised combat in Daggerheart;
That normalization is explicit in the opening pages of Daggerheart. Though cut for greater brevity, in one draft of my post, I included this snippet from Daggerheart:
WHAT KIND OF ROLEPLAYING GAME IS DAGGERHEART?

Daggerheart is a heroic, narrative-focused experience that features combat as a prominent aspect of play...
The designers are pretty clear about what the game is about, and what it's designed to do. But perhaps also interestingly enough for purposes of discussion in this thread, this section continues a paragraph or so later with the following (TRIGGER WARNING: the word "modern" appears in the text):
If you’re looking for a TTRPG that tells heroic fantasy stories with a modern approach to mechanics, focusing on both epic battles and the emotional narrative of the characters who fight in them, you’ve come to the right place.
I don't know if this is what inspired @Reynard to create this thread.
 

you say that strongly themed games are better at mechanically representing their theme than more generic games. Sure, they probably are, they certainly better be, otherwise they have no reason to exist.

My point was that this does not necessarily mean that strongly themed games are better. If all you want to do is covered by that theme, go ahead, but I generally find them rather constricting and prefer wide themes that give me a lot of space to mix things up within them over narrow ones. More generic games accommodate for that while the narrow ones fight you on it.

I’d rather play a generic action adventure game than a Lara Croft of Indiana Jones one. I’d rather play some SciFi over Bladerunner, etc.
To add to this, when I used GURPS to run X-Com, the reason I chose GURPS was because, after evaluating a range of systems it was GURPS that provided me with the best set of tools to realise my specific vision.

When I ran a high powered fantasy game where players had no restrictions on character concepts, I used HERO because, after evaluating a range of systems it was HERO that provided me with the best set of tools to realise my specific vision.

A highly focused game might be tightly tuned to the designer's intended theme, but a generic or toolkit game is often easier to tightly tune to my intended theme.
 

To add to this, when I used GURPS to run X-Com, the reason I chose GURPS was because, after evaluating a range of systems it was GURPS that provided me with the best set of tools to realise my specific vision.

When I ran a high powered fantasy game where players had no restrictions on character concepts, I used HERO because, after evaluating a range of systems it was HERO that provided me with the best set of tools to realise my specific vision.

A highly focused game might be tightly tuned to the designer's intended theme, but a generic or toolkit game is often easier to tightly tune to my intended theme.
When you say theme here I'm not sure what you mean. I feel like you mean the ingredients of play - character options, gear, enemies, setting details. Maybe also dials like power level of the characters, or the lethality of combat. I think what others are talking about with theme is more like what play will be about in terms of creative agenda and narrative focus - i.e. is this a game about principled characters facing escalating moral dilemmas, is it about personal growth and maintaining inter-character relationships, is it about being as realistic (or true to the setting) as possible, etc. Apologies if I have misread you.
 

When you say theme here I'm not sure what you mean. I feel like you mean the ingredients of play - character options, gear, enemies, setting details. Maybe also dials like power level of the characters, or the lethality of combat. I think what others are talking about with theme is more like what play will be about in terms of creative agenda and narrative focus - i.e. is this a game about principled characters facing escalating moral dilemmas, is it about personal growth and maintaining inter-character relationships, is it about being as realistic (or true to the setting) as possible, etc. Apologies if I have misread you.
By "theme" I also have in mind things like what aspects of the fiction will the game make salient? For instance, will emotional significance be a thing? And what sorts of ideals or conception of human life will the game foreground? For instance, as per my post not too far upthread about providence and divine plan.
 
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When you say theme here I'm not sure what you mean. I feel like you mean the ingredients of play - character options, gear, enemies, setting details. Maybe also dials like power level of the characters, or the lethality of combat. I think what others are talking about with theme is more like what play will be about in terms of creative agenda and narrative focus - i.e. is this a game about principled characters facing escalating moral dilemmas, is it about personal growth and maintaining inter-character relationships, is it about being as realistic (or true to the setting) as possible, etc. Apologies if I have misread you.
You may be right; I was using theme in this instance essentially as a catch-all for the intended mood and style of play, including what you list as ingredients, which I wouldn't tend to separate out as independent of that. My perspective is probably also skewed by the fact that, in general, I'm simply not looking for or interested in mechanical support for many of things you're listing as part of the creative agenda and narrative focus.

However, to throw a wrinkle into all that, you did add being "true to the setting" as a creative agenda at the end -- and it's certainly the case the GURPS was the system I found most capable of allowing me to run a game where we were able to be "true to the setting" as I envisaged it.
 

What I've written above in this post explains why I'm reasonably sceptical about this idea that some intents are wider in scope. I mean, they can vary in the range of fictional situations they will support (Burning Wheel is probably a bit less narrow than Agon 2e in this respect, though the latter can be and has been adapted to other sorts of fictional situation than Homeric Greece). But their implicit opinions/intents will still tend to produce a particular sort of experience.
I guess my problem with this is that it assumes that the only possible intent can be to want to create a particular, narrow experience. I do not think that is a valid assumption at all…
 

as I wrote in another post, much of that is personal preference rather than some objectively measurable improvement.

Sure. Do you have any examples you can share that would support your statement that older games are better when it comes to implementation, presentation, selection of mechanics, or open discussion about the reason for mechanics?

I agree that OSE’s rules are clearer and better organized than Gygax’s (not that hard…).

Exactly. This is a great example. Is anyone really going to say that the older presentation is superior? Maybe some hard core purists, but then I don't think they're judging by any reasonable metric.

I am a lot less sure that leaning a lot more narrative, giving the players a lot more control over the fiction / world, or making everything flexible with no downsides / consequences (changing weapon masteries after a long rest, having spectral wings for convenience) are automatically improvements for everyone

I haven't mentioned anything of the sort.

I’d rather play a generic action adventure game than a Lara Croft of Indiana Jones one. I’d rather play some SciFi over Bladerunner, etc.

What game would you choose to play for a Lara Croft Tomb Raider style game? And why would you say that system would be preferrable to a game designed specifically to deliver a Tomb Raider like experience?
 

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