What do you think of poison in d20

[Varianor Abroad]

The one thing I reproach to D&D poisons is that they're still bland.

I want more realistic poisons -- like poisons that causes someone to just sleep (without having for that to drive said person comatose through the loss of 36d12 Charisma).

Poisons that would paralyzes, stuns, daze, even blind. There are lots of conditions. And while the instantly/1 minute later thing is good for venoms of all kind, I'd like some poisons with onset times longer. IRL, there's a mushroom that is 100% lethal, but was considered comestible for a long time, because its poison takes several months before kicking in.

This is where Poisoncraft really shines. It has all the wrinkles in it already. You can make poisons that reduce a PC's saves. (Threw one at my group.) You can make poisons that steal abilities. You can throw a nasty, high-save DC poison with a different save than Fort at people. It's a great volume. Plus the monster templates where you can give critters poison blood did it for me.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I'm tempted to make poisons Fort ST for half, rather than Fort negates. To compensate, poisonous critters would only have a limited number of uses of poison per day.

 

[Bryan898]

I want poisons and diseases to be things to be feared and protected against, not just "eh, my +16 Fort save can handle it."

So increase the DC of your poisons. It's not like higher DC poisons don't exist, they're just rare and not listed in the DMG. A perfect example would be Colossal Monstrous Spider Poison- which has a DC 28 and 2d8 Str damage. Use the poison from a pit fiend if you need to, though I would rarely. Also remember that when you advance a creature with a natural poison the DC increases (DC 10+1/2 HD+ Con mod). So a 9 HD CR 9 Spirit Naga has a DC 18 save. A 27 HD CR 14 Spirit Naga has a DC 29 save. (CR calculated from back of MM, +1 per 4 HD added, and a +1 increase in size bonus)

 

[jmucchiello]

My only problem with CON based poisons is that d4 hit die classes get a double whammy against them. After 8 CON loss, you cannot have any hit points based on your hit die because even you rolled a 4 every time, the penalty for 8 CON loss is -4. After 8 CON loss, a d4 hit die creature only survives if it's initial CON is 12 or greater. (And that asssumes he roll max hit points.) On average a 10 CON d4 hit die character cannot survive 5-6 points of CON loss. The double whammy of course is that most d4 hit die classes have poor fort saves. What is it about magic study that makes one so susceptible to poision? And why do the descended from dragon's sorcerors have no resistance either?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well, CON loss can never lower you current max HP below your level, so ...

 

[D-rock]

I'm tempted to make poisons Fort ST for half, rather than Fort negates. To compensate, poisonous critters would only have a limited number of uses of poison per day.

Wouldn't you really have to limit them. Most creatures are killed off and never seen again, and I haven't been in too many fights where a single creature poisoned the group twenty times.

 

[Pants]

Well, CON loss can never lower you current max HP below your level, so ...

And make it harder to save when the critter poisons you again.

 

[HellHound]

My only problem with CON based poisons is that d4 hit die classes get a double whammy against them. After 8 CON loss, you cannot have any hit points based on your hit die because even you rolled a 4 every time, the penalty for 8 CON loss is -4.

As stated by others, the penalty for CON loss can not reduce a character below one hit point per hit die.

 

[Nyeshet]

I came up with my own systems for diseases and poisons, but the latter is relatively new and not yet playtested. Generally, an animal toxin tends to have two or three low damage fort save poisons rather than just one, and the duration, etc of each can differ significantly. I assume that injury based poisons affect immediately and after one interval, but other poisons do not take effect until after a full interval - thus adding in a delay. Came up with some other rules for how long poisons last after extraction from the host creature, and a few others. Tried to base it off real world data, but trying to do anything beyond animals with toxins is difficult. There are not really any general categories for non-animal toxins (such as Hemolytic toxins, Postsynaptic neurotoxins, etc). I'd post it here but its about 3.5 pages long and it only covers the general rule set - not specific examples (one of the reasons I've yet to play test it).

The general idea is that a poison first damages actual ability, reducing an ability eventually to one (with enough damage, failed saves, etc). Any damage after the ability is reduced to one causes the toxin to damage the potential - reducing the maximum to which the ability can heal. Effectively it is drain divided into two parts. Once both are reduced to one any further damage requires a save vs death (due to the ability being reduced to zero). (Dex: paralysis of the heart/lungs; Str: organ damage; Con: obvious).

Slow poisoning is replicated via long interval / low damage poisons (1d2 or 1d3). Poisons have a number of intervals equal to the Con modifier of the creature they come from. If the poison is supernatural, of enhanced intensity (due to purification processes after extraction), etc it may have more. After extraction a poison tends to lose its potency rapidly unless it is properly stored, in which case the duration of its potency is based on days rather than hours. Of course, long inteval poisons will last for over two hundred days even if improperly stored - so long as they are not contaminated. With proper storage a long interval poison could last almost 14 years, after which is potency begins to fade. A short interval poison rarely lasts more than a month before fading, even with proper storage.

 

[Nyeshet]

I may as well post a few more details, as the core of the poison system I used has already been explained.

Short interval: 10 + Con mod (of the poisonee) rounds per interval (~1 minute)
Mod interval: 100 + (2*Con mod) rounds per interval (~10 minutes)
Long interval: 1,000 + (10*Con mod) rounds per interval (~ 1 hr, 40 min)

For purified / supernatural / (otherwise extraordinary) poisons:
Very Short interval: 1 + (half Con mod) round(s)
Very Long interval: 10,000 + (50*Con mod) rounds per interval (~ 16 hrs, 40 min)

Hemotoxins (various types): affect Con
Neurotoxins (various types): affect Dex
Myotoxins (few types): affect Str, rarely lead to death in the real world, however, so damage is only high in supernatural cases
Cytotoxins (few types): little effect except extremely locally, tends to worsen affects of other toxins, so I presume this causes a normally 'ability damage' toxin to instead act like an 'ability drain' toxin.

A collection of un-categorized toxins cause a variety of other effects upon a failed save (fort or will, depending). These can range from sleep to nausia to hallucinations, etc. I will likely choose one or two effects for each ability score. Note that I categorize substances that affect physical abilities as poisons and substances that affect mental abilities as drugs. Toxin is a catch-all word encompassing both.

Creatures are typically limited to twice their Con mod in toxins per day (ie: a venomous bite or a sting - and this is being generous). The number of intervals a poison has is related to the Con mod of the creature it came from. As this mod also affects the DC of the poison, this typically means that poisons with great intensity last longer - a (possibly) realistic effect.

Delay Poison would work by allowing the character to skip their next interval (ie: not needing to make a save). They would, however, still have the same number of intervals to deal with after. If multiple poisons are within the person, each would have the next interval skipped - offset until later.

Neutralize poison would allow for an autosave upon the next interval for each poison within the character.

I've not yet decided whether to add the facet I use in the disease system for saves (one save and the disease is in remission in the current stage, two and the character moves back a stage - until no more saves exist and the character is cured). In that system Remove Disease simply autosaves and moves the character back a stage in the disease. If a similar system were worked into Poisons than two saves in a row (for a specific poison) might allow for overcoming the (specific) poison - no longer needing to make saves for it. In such an situation two successive castings of Neutralize Poison would cure a person of any poison.

I may or may not add this, for if I added this I would have to add the opposite: two successive failures causes the character to take maximum ability damage (1d4 results in 4, for instance) and the character decends to the next stage of the disease even if it is sooner than normal. In the case of poisons I'm not sure how I would work that - perhaps cause (upon second successive failure for a specific poison) maximum die damage (1d4 results in 4, etc) and an immediate save for the next interval - ie skipping the normal duration of time. That could make a person die real fast even with the lower damage die I would typically use in my system.