What do you want from a campaign setting?

[Vascant]

So what follow-up products do you prefer for a campaign setting (locales, regions, adventures)? How often would you want follow-up materials produced? Would one game supplement per quarter be enough (with short monthly web enhancements put out to tide fans over until the next supplement comes out)? Would you be more likely to buy a campaign setting that promises follow-up products even before the campaign setting comes out?

What about others? Any comments, questions, or suggestions in regards to campaign setting follow through?

One a quarter? Ever been hooked on a setting before? Once a month would be a perfect world. This is what makes WotC who they are, every week you can get something new from them, be it a free small blurb from Ed concerning a wedding in Waterdeep, to the new products each month.

Roman leaders knew how to manage the mob, you didn't have to them a loaf of bread often, if you gave them a slice frequently.

 

[jaldaen]

I'll echo what Wil said, and add that I want flavor over crunch. I'm not a big fan of the obligatory feats and prestige classes. Not that I'm against them, necessarily, but we've already got more than we can use in a lifetime (although I find that substitution levels are pretty cool...). So if you MUST add them, make them distinctive to the world--there must be a good reason why they are included.

I'm a map nut. The more the better.

Although the setting will have a lot of unique rules (including feats), they are very setting specific and distinctive.

As for maps... I'm getting the feeling that maps are important for a campaign setting and will make a note to have as many as possible

 

[jaldaen]

There are a couple of settings which go into extensive detail about the history of the world. I can think of nothing more boring than that. The setting needs to tell me what's happening NOW and how adventurers (PCs) play a role in it. A few pages of history are fine, but that's all I want.

A quick question for all: Would you prefer your history woven into the backgrounds of NPCs and locales with a short overview chapter or would you prefer a larger history chapter with locales and NPCs woven into a single narrative and then have cursory references in the NPC and locale entries? Any inventive ways you have seen history integrated into a campaign setting before?

 

[jaldaen]

A setting first and foremost needs maps.

I'm definately getting that vibe and will make maps a priority ;-)

Well you need the basics - you need a default area in which new players can start a game. That's where you provide a little extra effort in details. Otherwise you simply need to lay out the political landscape - the nations, cities, and individuals who are the most influential, who are DRIVING world events. Whether the PC's are ever even intended to get involved in those events is irrelevant, you just need to put up the backdrop... Then you need to keep in mind that DM's need to be able to willfully disregard tons of all your carefully laid out setting information. You should never be DICTATING to a DM "how this world should be," only how YOU see it. DM's will make up their own minds if you were right.

Sounds like its best to lay out a solid foundation with a lot of adventure opportunities laid out and then let the DM do the campaigning... I set the buffet the DM chooses what he wants from it... cafetria (but with good food) campaign setting design... that sounds like a plan

One thing that I don't think I've ever seen anyone do is to address more of the monster population spread. Not just "Hyere be draygonnes," but "here be giants, orcs, owlbears, dire wolves, ents, and giant venus flytraps." Usually, if addressed at all this sort of thing is relegated to an encounter chart. I want more than just encounter charts... I want to know what role the DEFAULT monsters are playing in this setting. I want to know if the Purple Plains have herds of horses, elk, cows, kangaroos, all the above or if the wandering rocs and bulettes keep it fairly sparse... tell me SOMETHING about the ecology... Ecology is NOT just a page of random table entries.

It sounds like you would appreciate a major race/flora/fauna (i.e. ecology) entry for each important region/realm... something I can greatly appreciate as I too like my worlds alive and kicking

Kinda falls under the heading of "History". There needs to be RECENT and LOCAL history that the average Joe PC will know... The closer to present time the more detailed history should be, the further from the present the briefer it should be because it eventually becomes irrelevant. Again, for those DM's who lack imagination or time you can be nice and provide some projection into the future - but remember that once the campaign begins the events that the individual DM perpetrates can and WILL rapidly render a future years worth of events incompatible.

I'll definately be sure to put in recent and local history and perhaps a few suggestions for future events for each region... as for history how long/short do you prefer a campaign setting's history be? Under 5, 10, or 20 pages? What about a setting with extremely long-lived NPCs? Would you want the history to focus on them and their roles in the setting's history, even if some of their deeds (which helped shape the current form of the world) happened millenium ago?

SPECIFICALLY as a player? No. I'll pick up plenty as a DM but see there's this thing called meta-gaming and... Wait, you HAVE played this game before haven't you?

Indeed I have, but rarely as a player, so sometimes I forget what the other side of the screen feels like

 

[Wil]

Maps... world map, locale maps, and unique area maps... That should be doable ;-) Though this does bring to mind a question... do you prefer stylized maps which accent the setting or straightforward maps which get across the information? And what about a map that changes or has unmappable areas... how would you want something like that handled by a cartographer?

What I really like to see is a map of the world as it is seen by the world's cartographers and then, if appropriate, a straightforward map (or at least a map that has all of the detail on it). If the structure of the world and the mapmakers' understanding are one and the same (like Exalted, where the world really is flat, the Blessed Isle is at the center and the edges really do turn into endless expanses of the appropriate element) than one map will do - but it is really nice to have a second map that has all of the unknown and secret areas on it. This is, of course, granted that I am probably in the minority that I don't count the miles from city to city - I much prefer to deal with how long it takes, versus how far it is. Subtle difference there, but just because you can make it from point a to point b in a week (especially on foot or mounted) does not mean it will always be that way.

Any particular areas in Joe Xlander's life you would want focused on more than others? What are the absolutely necessary elements a setting must explore in Joe Xlander's life in your opinion?

Granted, the average peasant's life is going to be similar nearly anywhere, but touching on the kinds of food that they eat, what livelihoods are available to them, is there social mobility, how much does religion play in their day to day existence. Birth ceremonies, marriage ceremonies (do they even have marriage? Are they monogamous?), death rites. Do the different social classes have marked differences in these things? Essays on the sociocultural structure of a society is probably overboard - a lot can be said in a couple paragraph narrative (which I am fond of, if done well) over a straight encyclopedia entry works best. Tribe 8, at least in the first edition, did this by following a scribe who was tasked with chronicling details about each of the Tribes (in fact, much of the world information is written from her point of view - although I liked the presentation, many complained it was too subjective).

Could you give a couple examples of what you see as a meaningful explanation of why things work the way they do? I think I understand, but a couple examples from other settings would be helpful to drive home the point. From what I can tell you would like the campaign setting to give these explanations in a logical, but unique manner which draws out both GM and player interest in the setting.

I don't have a lot of experience with d20 settings. I think that the legacy of Tolkien has left a very strong mark on fantasy gaming, where there is a tendency to write these long, dry histories with languages and whatnot, include Elves and Dwarves "just because", etc. A decent example might be a gameworld I never finished creating where the "multiverse" consisted of a series of layers, like an onion. The "good gods" had warred with the "evil gods" and had won - however, since they couldn't destroy them they imprisoned them, wrapping them in layer upon layer of rules and restrictions until they could not move. This resulted in universe that as you moved up and down the planes, the laws of reality became less or more fluid. At the very center, where the gods were imprisoned, the laws of reality were so restrictive as to make everything stagnant - no atomic motion, no time, no anything. At the uppermost layer, where the gods lived, it was pure chaos - anything could happen. The level the game world was set on, which was very Earthlike, was somewhere in the middle. Elves, which were fairly typical elves in terms of how they looked, acted, etc. had been in the distant past servants of the gods and had lived on a layer higher up than the game world. However, through their hubris and arrogance they were cast down to the game world's level, tasked with looking after the inhabitants (i.e., humans) there because the gods had some plans for them. So while the Elves are superior to the humans, they're also the humans' caretakers. Dwarves (as might be guessed) came from a layer just below the game world's, where the laws governing reality are a bit stricter. Hence, and Elves and Dwarves don't like each other much; Elves are better with magic (their native reality is more fluid) while Dwarves are resistant to it (because their native reality is more static). I was able to keep those tropes of fantasy rpgs and literature, but give a different explanation as to the reasons why.

So it doesn't matter how the adventure hooks are presented, just as long as they are in the setting book aplenty, eh? Would you like to see mini-adventure sidebars (or appendices), which layout a short adventure (with map) based on the information being explored? What are some of your favorite presentations of adventure hooks? Were there any unique presentations which have stuck with you and you'd like to see again?

I don't really use mini-adventures that much, sense I tend to write my own stuff. So I guess for me it's balancing act between providing some neat hooks that I can use vs. taking up too much space on stuff I won't. Usually it's the setting text itself that provides the hooks for me...like in a section about a city, reading the sentence "Over recent years, the trade war between these two houses has escalated to the point that both are on the verge of collapse". That's a hook to me...however, as a more direct answer my favorite presentation has always been an adventure seed in a sidebar, that gives a short summary of a potential scenario based on what is being discussed in detail on that page. So in the example, the section may be about the trade houses of a city, and the sidebar might have an idea for how the PCs might run interference against one house for the other. The opposite (or following) sidebar might have the stats of the two house leaders, and maybe another prominent NPC or two. Having the scenarios in the sidebars allows me to finish reading the main text, and then look at the sidebar without breaking my "rythmn" as it were.

 

[Thotas]

I know it's been said, and I know you said you've got the message, but gimme maps! If you hand me a map and nothing else, I can populate it myself. On the other hand, the primary reason (of admittedly, more than one) you'll never see me incorporate "Ghostwalk" into any campaign of mine is that it talks about the surrounding geography, but there is no map and trying to draw one based on the verbiage is not an easy task.

Supplements that advance the history of the world ... I know some will disagree with me here, but I say the way to handle them is to not. Once I buy the campaign it's mine. I don't want you telling me that a year later that I have to tell my players that the god half of them (including the cleric) worship died in a new supplement but it's okay 'cause some NPC wiped out the evil organization I had planned to have them tangling with for the next dozen sessions so they don't need his spells anyway.

Now give me lots of seeds, as you say, so I can grow gardens large and small, when and where I want to, with a flexibility that allows my players to create a bunch of brigands or a handfull of heroes and still have places to go, allies to enlist and foes to crush. Introduce a tense situation, and mention two or three ways I might develop it depending on what other elements of the campaign I decide to emphasize in concert with it.

Yes, I have to have something to hand to the players to introduce them to what's going on ... or at least, what's going on at the surface as seen by the ordinary 1st level adventurer. Hopefully, it also serves as a good intro for me ... just before I open the DM secret book of look how much trouble there is in this world.

 

[Aus_Snow]

What Wil said.

Also, publisher integrity. But that's something I hope to see in any RPG product.

A classic example would be the AGoT books by GoO. There's a campaign setting (well, that and an entire OGL system to support it) done almost perfectly, in my opinion. Nearly everything is there for a good reason. OK, some more 'lower-level' maps would have made it even better, but still. I suppose they had a significant advantage over many publishers though, working from a base of one of the (IMO) best fantasy stories in existence.

I sometimes wonder if there's also a high-magic d20 campaign setting that could compare on enough levels. If there is, I want a copy, whatever it is. Now!


Believability is high on my list. Sound strange in the context of fantasy RPG's? Well, even so. I like settings that make sense, that are consistent throughout, that feel like living, breathing worlds inhabited by real individuals with real lives.

 

[amethal]

I like campaign settings which encourage me to take them over and make them my own.

I'm perfectly happy doing this anyway, but I like to feel its what the designers had in mind at the start, so I'm going with the flow rather than against it.

I hate thousands of years of history. Its generally very boring to read through. Also, where the history has been developed piecemeal (especially in a large line of novels) I often find it looks absurd when gathered together. How many cataclysms does a world need, for goodness sake!

And it can make it look like all the great deeds have been done, and the current generation of adventurers are just pygmies compared to the heroes of old - and in a worst case scenario, these heroes of old are still on the scene hogging the limelight.

My major hate though is "future history" - once I buy a campaign setting the future is the responsibility of me and my players.

I like campaign settings with plenty of plot hooks, but I like them to be subtle. My favourite plot hook is a throwaway sentence in the middle of a paragraph somewhere, which gets my imagination working when I read it.

Oh, and I like maps. In particular, there has to be one world map which shows everything. None of this "and there are rumours of a large continent to the west" nonsense - put it on the flaming map!

However, if you are going to do a map, then for goodness sake say something about everywhere that is mentioned on it. Even if its just a sentence "The Dark Swamp is home to many warring tribes of savage lizardfolk, and there are rumours an ancient black dragon has its lair there"

 

[Vascant]

And while amethal hates History, I love it. There may be a happy medium here though, while you focus on the core of the setting let other writers and such be permitted to explore the many different facets. You then have more people providing content for your setting, leaving you to work on other aspects. Granted it is a little bold because most prefer to "lock down" the licensing and permission.

 

[TheYeti1775]

Things I look for:
Good Index
I want fluff not too much crunch.

Dawnforge / Valus both with their new 'crunch' rules succeed in this endeavor.
Both could easily ignore their own crunch and be ported to a location in your known worlds.

Geography is a major key for me. Give me the lay of the land, locales in which to explore.
Cities/Towns major points of interest - give simple breakdowns of their populations and the major industry/commerce. Give general notes on Underworld activites. Note active organizations.

Politics, explain the current political sitreps. How the militaries stand.

Maps are good, but something I havent seen in a long time. PLAYER MAPS.
Make one simple overland map like a PC would buy. On the maps I say put a full collection on a cd, (or if in a PDF, put it in an appendix). If within reason give several random area maps, the various countries etc. DM's can always use maps, hence the success of Map Folio's.

Organizations - Public and private goals, leaderships, etc.

Give a section of possible plots.

One key is DO NOT give too much detail. The best thing about Dawnforge and Valus is their ability for the DM to shape the world to his desire easily without over worrying right away if PC's in kingdom X kill BBEG, how much it would effect kingdom y directly unless it was part of the DM plotline.

Just my 2 coppers.

Yeti