Standing army
Public works
That is about it.
Public works
That is about it.
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What Do Your Fantasy Societies in D&D Get For Their Taxes and Tithes?
- Thread starter Chrisling
- Start date
Celebrim
Legend
I tend to disallow any spell whose existance I think threatens the social fabric of all historical societies. In this way, I don't have to completely reinvent world history and social structure.
One spell that is completely disallowed in its current form is teleportation circle. Once made permanent, this spell provides a stable safe means of transporting people from one place to an infinite distance away. The benifits of this are so great, that every major city and kingdom would have long ago set up 'stations' in which people would pay tolls to travel to other 'stations' throughout the kingdom. Armies would be transported in this fashion. Merchants would carry valuable goods in this fashion. Empires would be based on these teleportation circles in the same way that Rome and the Incans (and to a lesser extent the Americans) based there empires on good roads. The result would be such a vastly different world that I'm not prepared to handle it except by building a world up from scratch with this spell in mind.
However, since I want the spell to still be available for its tradiational 'wasted' use in tombs and dungeons I rewrote into a socially safe version.
Fireball is a probablimatic spell in itself (and all area of effect spells in general), but I've never been willing to tackle a spell that fundamental to the game. I suspect that in a world were a mere 5th level mage can wipe out a armored force of 10 or more men in a single blast from a range of 150 yards or more that formation armies would be as effectively obseleted as they were by the repeating rifle, that camoflague would become important and that armies in the field would operate in a dispersed fashion. A few experiments with Battlesystem seems to confirm this feeling that magic would totally alter the dynamics of combat.
One spell that is completely disallowed in its current form is teleportation circle. Once made permanent, this spell provides a stable safe means of transporting people from one place to an infinite distance away. The benifits of this are so great, that every major city and kingdom would have long ago set up 'stations' in which people would pay tolls to travel to other 'stations' throughout the kingdom. Armies would be transported in this fashion. Merchants would carry valuable goods in this fashion. Empires would be based on these teleportation circles in the same way that Rome and the Incans (and to a lesser extent the Americans) based there empires on good roads. The result would be such a vastly different world that I'm not prepared to handle it except by building a world up from scratch with this spell in mind.
However, since I want the spell to still be available for its tradiational 'wasted' use in tombs and dungeons I rewrote into a socially safe version.
Fireball is a probablimatic spell in itself (and all area of effect spells in general), but I've never been willing to tackle a spell that fundamental to the game. I suspect that in a world were a mere 5th level mage can wipe out a armored force of 10 or more men in a single blast from a range of 150 yards or more that formation armies would be as effectively obseleted as they were by the repeating rifle, that camoflague would become important and that armies in the field would operate in a dispersed fashion. A few experiments with Battlesystem seems to confirm this feeling that magic would totally alter the dynamics of combat.
Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
Teleportation Circle!!!
Good point on that one.
One setting that used that well was Al-Quadim. Most of the population was either nomadic or tied into these little city states so teleportation was used very effectively as were corps of flying mages. The writers had adjusted some tactics for magic, but I don't know how systematized they were except that the main city relied a great deal on its genie reserves.
Most premodern societies in Western Europe and Asia had a really hard time keeping, improving, training, and distributing an educated elite. So I always presume that there are similar problems for fantasy societies.
I mean picture the problem of humanities professors who aren't willing to work for cheap and can do something about it.
Circles of teleportation and things along the lines of magical dams, a nod to Exalted, could have a massive affect on the infrastructures of society. But you can't print spellbooks.
But I'm pretty convinced that basic social organization would actually be reinforced or be changed in the subtle ways indicated by something like Kalamar.
Even a Circles of Teleportation aren't necessarily a guarantee of anything other than a less obvious need to rip up countryside for roads and faster mail.
I saw a really neat docu t'other night which claimed that close order formations persisted past the invention of machine guns, shrapnel shell, and rifles because no modern army felt it could maintain command and control if the troops were scattered around the field. Explained those nasty civil war casualties really well.
In a medieval society I suspect that the adaptation would actually be to reduce the size of the units and the engagements.
Field battles were really rare in medieval Europe. People tended to mostly skirmish, siege, and raid.
Which is actually a pretty good model for fantasy as you would expect that people would counter magical might by trying to keep wizards and high level fighters away from everyone but others of their own kind except when absolutely necessary to the protection or destruction of a stronghold.
Kidnapping your rivals prize wizard would probably put him into negotiations right quick, and thus the rogue would be the supreme class.
Good point on that one.
One setting that used that well was Al-Quadim. Most of the population was either nomadic or tied into these little city states so teleportation was used very effectively as were corps of flying mages. The writers had adjusted some tactics for magic, but I don't know how systematized they were except that the main city relied a great deal on its genie reserves.
Most premodern societies in Western Europe and Asia had a really hard time keeping, improving, training, and distributing an educated elite. So I always presume that there are similar problems for fantasy societies.
I mean picture the problem of humanities professors who aren't willing to work for cheap and can do something about it.
Circles of teleportation and things along the lines of magical dams, a nod to Exalted, could have a massive affect on the infrastructures of society. But you can't print spellbooks.
But I'm pretty convinced that basic social organization would actually be reinforced or be changed in the subtle ways indicated by something like Kalamar.
Even a Circles of Teleportation aren't necessarily a guarantee of anything other than a less obvious need to rip up countryside for roads and faster mail.
I saw a really neat docu t'other night which claimed that close order formations persisted past the invention of machine guns, shrapnel shell, and rifles because no modern army felt it could maintain command and control if the troops were scattered around the field. Explained those nasty civil war casualties really well.
In a medieval society I suspect that the adaptation would actually be to reduce the size of the units and the engagements.
Field battles were really rare in medieval Europe. People tended to mostly skirmish, siege, and raid.
Which is actually a pretty good model for fantasy as you would expect that people would counter magical might by trying to keep wizards and high level fighters away from everyone but others of their own kind except when absolutely necessary to the protection or destruction of a stronghold.
Kidnapping your rivals prize wizard would probably put him into negotiations right quick, and thus the rogue would be the supreme class.
Irda Ranger
First Post
Looking at the comments about loss to curruption (my own among them) has me thinking about what it would be like to live in a Theocracy in D&D-land.
Think about it.
The Gods are REAL. They enforce moral principles, plugged directly into your soul. There would be no curruption in a Lawful Good Theocracy. By enforcable means, corrupt folks would be kept out of government. Imagine that everyone in the government really was Lawful Good, guaranteed by a God that is omniscient and LG him/herself.
Taxes would always be fair, and never wasted on personal pleasures.
Hmm, now that I think about it, Arcane magic isn't so unbalancing. Divine Magic is. A truly Lawful Good society would be so good at organizing and going on crusades, while being fair and honest at the same time, why wasn't the world pacified years ago?
Ach, right, because of Grumsh and Erynthul.
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As for the Teleportation Circle, it could be the only thing that makes civilization possible. Remember, its not bandits in them thar hills, its Orcs and Ogres. A web of cities connected by a Teleportation web might be the only reliable means of trade and travel. So, it was the Romans who build the first great Portal-Web, and civilizations to this day have always used it. We aren't sure where they all go though ...
Irda Ranger
Think about it.
The Gods are REAL. They enforce moral principles, plugged directly into your soul. There would be no curruption in a Lawful Good Theocracy. By enforcable means, corrupt folks would be kept out of government. Imagine that everyone in the government really was Lawful Good, guaranteed by a God that is omniscient and LG him/herself.
Taxes would always be fair, and never wasted on personal pleasures.
Hmm, now that I think about it, Arcane magic isn't so unbalancing. Divine Magic is. A truly Lawful Good society would be so good at organizing and going on crusades, while being fair and honest at the same time, why wasn't the world pacified years ago?
Ach, right, because of Grumsh and Erynthul.
------------------------------------------------------
As for the Teleportation Circle, it could be the only thing that makes civilization possible. Remember, its not bandits in them thar hills, its Orcs and Ogres. A web of cities connected by a Teleportation web might be the only reliable means of trade and travel. So, it was the Romans who build the first great Portal-Web, and civilizations to this day have always used it. We aren't sure where they all go though ...
Irda Ranger
I told myself I wasn't going to speculate too much, that I was just going to listen to what people said but . . . I feel the urge to pontificate. 
Think: decanters of endless water. Thirty gallons a round. Forever. One jug would be enough to give around forty gallons of water a day for 100,000 people. For 9,000 gp.
So, what do you get? Cities blossoming in deserts, for starters.
That thirty gallons a round is also at high pressure. Steam engines? Pshaw -- water power! Portable! The size of a bottle! Slap a few of those babies on the back of a boat and, shazam, you've got yourself a vessel independent of tide and wind. Decanters of endless water as <i>free power</i> once you put in the initial 9,000 gp investment! They'd be everywhere and used for everything! Factory owners would buy them for water wheels to propel their factories -- you want to talk about magically jump starting an industrial revolution! Well, I got your industrial revolution in a bottle!
Of course, there might be problems with these widgets. Such as . . . water pollution! What happens to a desert city that has five or six of these gizmos that, for whatever reason, is uninhabited? Millions of gallons of water spewing for thousands of years . . . shazam, a swamp in the middle of a desert!
And, eventually, inevitably, enough of them would start to effect the overall environment. The water would be going in but would they have the foresight to take it out? I mean, more water can't be bad, can it?
Until, of course, the weather starts to change. Would they even notice it? Or suspect the cause? Would water removal become an issue? Who knows!
Thinks like this keep me up at night when I'm sick, which I am.
Think: decanters of endless water. Thirty gallons a round. Forever. One jug would be enough to give around forty gallons of water a day for 100,000 people. For 9,000 gp.
So, what do you get? Cities blossoming in deserts, for starters.
That thirty gallons a round is also at high pressure. Steam engines? Pshaw -- water power! Portable! The size of a bottle! Slap a few of those babies on the back of a boat and, shazam, you've got yourself a vessel independent of tide and wind. Decanters of endless water as <i>free power</i> once you put in the initial 9,000 gp investment! They'd be everywhere and used for everything! Factory owners would buy them for water wheels to propel their factories -- you want to talk about magically jump starting an industrial revolution! Well, I got your industrial revolution in a bottle!
Of course, there might be problems with these widgets. Such as . . . water pollution! What happens to a desert city that has five or six of these gizmos that, for whatever reason, is uninhabited? Millions of gallons of water spewing for thousands of years . . . shazam, a swamp in the middle of a desert!
And, eventually, inevitably, enough of them would start to effect the overall environment. The water would be going in but would they have the foresight to take it out? I mean, more water can't be bad, can it?
Until, of course, the weather starts to change. Would they even notice it? Or suspect the cause? Would water removal become an issue? Who knows!
Thinks like this keep me up at night when I'm sick, which I am.
Jürgen Hubert
First Post
s/LaSH
First Post
Irda Ranger said:S'Mon - I would have to completely agree with you. I would rather have been at the Battle of Agincourt or the Norman Conquest than the Charge of the Light Brigade, or the 18th century British Navy. Not that I fancy being shot with arrows, its just slightly less brutish, dirty and short
Actually, my information says that the introduction of gunpowder has lessened casualties in combat.
Seriously. Arrows are deadlier than bullets.
I can't quote the exact source right now; my father told me about it. He was a Captain in the Engineering Corps here in New Zealand, and we've got almost as many military history books as theological tomes around here, so I'm going to trust him on this one.
(And when I say 'lots of books', I mean one wall of my room is literally constructed out of bookshelves. And that's only 1/10th of the bookshelf space in our house.)
That's not to say gunpowder is useless, however. Look at all the British exploits in Africa a century ago. More importantly, look at The Square. I can't remember if it's broken once or never, but The Square formation equipped with rifles is capable of utterly decimating an attacking cavalry force.
Under the 'magic as technology' paradigm, I suppose you'd replace the rifles with magic missile wands or magic bows. Siege equipment and artillery would be replaced with fireball and the like. This would typically occur after a rennaisance period, in which the average level of magic user would shoot up dramatically; after the rennaisance, nearly every city dweller would have at least one level of wizard. Again, not typical for a medieval campaign.
However, IMC the Romans did have a magically advanced civilisation; certainly more advanced than the elves that later slaughtered their legions and razed their cities. Slave mages were treated with great respect because of their talents; anyone with rank could expect continual flame spells all over their house. They didn't have applied planar theory, however; this curtailed their magical ability to about the fifth spell level, and they couldn't teleport.
They couldn't compete with dragons, either. Consider that the greatest dragons in the MM have 19th-level sorcery. At least in my world, the dragons are to us as we are to ants. We think we're so great with our aeroplanes/fly spells and great armies. Dragons have been doing everything we can imagine a thousand times better for a thousand times longer. They just don't want to share.
Dr. Strangemonkey
First Post
Magic and your Resume
I'm not really up on which sorts of bows are better than what sort of guns during which period. I suspect that arrows are better than guns over a lot of history in a variety of situations.
Three things I do know about why guns are generally better are:
Armor is much more effective against arrows. Even a Longbowman only stands a chance of doing significant damage to someone in Gothic plate with padding if they get a lot of hits in. Horses, however, are vulnerable thus Agincourt.
Guns are cheaper to make and train people in. I don't know about short bows but I imagine longbows are pretty expensive to make and I know that it take about three years to make a good double-curved reinforced composite bow. It takes through about 8th grade of training from toddlerhood for a good Mongol to then learn how to use one effectively in battle from horse back.
Guns take a lot less physical strength to use. I can fire a rifle as often as I please, I couldn't pull a long bow twice without crying.
I love the stuff on teleportation circles and civilization. Think about the skirmishes to dispel them in war or sending in advanced teams to get them on the ground before the enemy knows what's going on.
And given the speculation on free water and power sources, which was a question I had cause I could not figure out if magic gave you a good power train, brings to mind the issues of nations trying to develop better and more brutal dispel tactics.
Again Al-Quadim did have people depending on such free water magic, but deserts had other problems so people still stuck to the coasts and rivers.
Think of the imporance of divining in such a world. I recall a great conversation about how important the various schools of magic would be to a modern American company.
"I see you have a background in Necromancy, we can always use more of that over in human resources."
or in schools:
"Ahhhhh, Vice-Principal SSSooohothoth Lord Lich of the Damned, I was just going to the bathroom."
I'm not really up on which sorts of bows are better than what sort of guns during which period. I suspect that arrows are better than guns over a lot of history in a variety of situations.
Three things I do know about why guns are generally better are:
Armor is much more effective against arrows. Even a Longbowman only stands a chance of doing significant damage to someone in Gothic plate with padding if they get a lot of hits in. Horses, however, are vulnerable thus Agincourt.
Guns are cheaper to make and train people in. I don't know about short bows but I imagine longbows are pretty expensive to make and I know that it take about three years to make a good double-curved reinforced composite bow. It takes through about 8th grade of training from toddlerhood for a good Mongol to then learn how to use one effectively in battle from horse back.
Guns take a lot less physical strength to use. I can fire a rifle as often as I please, I couldn't pull a long bow twice without crying.
I love the stuff on teleportation circles and civilization. Think about the skirmishes to dispel them in war or sending in advanced teams to get them on the ground before the enemy knows what's going on.
And given the speculation on free water and power sources, which was a question I had cause I could not figure out if magic gave you a good power train, brings to mind the issues of nations trying to develop better and more brutal dispel tactics.
Again Al-Quadim did have people depending on such free water magic, but deserts had other problems so people still stuck to the coasts and rivers.
Think of the imporance of divining in such a world. I recall a great conversation about how important the various schools of magic would be to a modern American company.
"I see you have a background in Necromancy, we can always use more of that over in human resources."
or in schools:
"Ahhhhh, Vice-Principal SSSooohothoth Lord Lich of the Damned, I was just going to the bathroom."
G'day there
It is astonishing how little people in mediaeval societies got for their taxes and tithes.
Taxes in general were raised to pay for wars, or to repay loans that were originally taken out to pay for wars and other royal extravagances, such as building castles and palaces. Justice was self-funding out of fines. And roads and ports were generally built and paid for by a corvée (labour tribute) rather than paid for by the royal government.
Tithes did not go to pay the parish priests, or at least not always. They usually belonged to some prelate or even lay magnate, usually the successor of the person who built the church. The priest lived by farming or renting out a piece of land called 'the glebe', and by collecting fees for services, and by collecting dues (such as the best bed and best clothes and second-best beasts of anyone who died in the parish, etc.) Charging for the sacraments was technically simony, but a lot of it went on anyway. Even priests who recieved incomes from endowments set up to say certain masses often did not do it. They kept the salaries and did not show up. So in the later mediaeval period, rather than endow chantries and so forth, many people left incomes in trust with attorneys to pay fees only to the priests who actually showed up to sing specified masses. The unedifying spectacle of priests singing a mass in an indistinguishable mumble and then filing past a lawyer to collect a fee was on of the disillusioning impressions that led to the Reformation.
There is no reason why characters in a D&D world should fare any better, unless the deities take a more interventionist role than God does in the administration of his Church.
Regards,
Agback
It is astonishing how little people in mediaeval societies got for their taxes and tithes.
Taxes in general were raised to pay for wars, or to repay loans that were originally taken out to pay for wars and other royal extravagances, such as building castles and palaces. Justice was self-funding out of fines. And roads and ports were generally built and paid for by a corvée (labour tribute) rather than paid for by the royal government.
Tithes did not go to pay the parish priests, or at least not always. They usually belonged to some prelate or even lay magnate, usually the successor of the person who built the church. The priest lived by farming or renting out a piece of land called 'the glebe', and by collecting fees for services, and by collecting dues (such as the best bed and best clothes and second-best beasts of anyone who died in the parish, etc.) Charging for the sacraments was technically simony, but a lot of it went on anyway. Even priests who recieved incomes from endowments set up to say certain masses often did not do it. They kept the salaries and did not show up. So in the later mediaeval period, rather than endow chantries and so forth, many people left incomes in trust with attorneys to pay fees only to the priests who actually showed up to sing specified masses. The unedifying spectacle of priests singing a mass in an indistinguishable mumble and then filing past a lawyer to collect a fee was on of the disillusioning impressions that led to the Reformation.
There is no reason why characters in a D&D world should fare any better, unless the deities take a more interventionist role than God does in the administration of his Church.
Regards,
Agback
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