What Do Your Fantasy Societies in D&D Get For Their Taxes and Tithes?

[Chrisling]

And . . . I'm not so sure that a magic ridden society might not be able to match the level of industrialization and mass production of modern societies.

For instance, just how much fiendish and elemental labor can a wizard employ? Some liberality with the <i>planar binding</i> spells, particularly if the wizard avoids the bigger and badder critters, could create armies of ageless, tireless workers.

Which, again, would have incredible social consequences, but the notion that magic can't create energy is something I'm not sure I buy.

 

[Chrisling]

Dr. Strangemonkey, I fully concede it would be possible to have a system of feudal obligations that is both lawful (ideally, feudalism is very lawful) and good (with the caveat we'd have to poke around to find out what that means). But I feel that the attitude of, "Well, people in fantasy games can't really deserve any better than 12th century French peasants got" is merely avoiding the question -- as 12th century European feudalism was very chaotic and very self serving for the aristocracy. It simply isn't the group of people I was referring to in my original post.

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

Concession Taken and Exploited

All right!!! Paladin lords for everybody!!!

Actually, the question of what sort of society develops magic is an interesting idea.

Seems like most fantasy settings get around the consequences of high magic in prior cultures by making the current culture the result of a collapse. Ala, Rome to the Middle Ages. Though I think that is a little bit unfair since Medieval Europe had better tech generally just worse engineering and social organization.

I mean Forgotten Realms has, what?, like six 'fallen' high magic empires. Maybe that's the real effect of these hordes of orcs and other things that would probably kick our collective demi-human heinees in pure Darwinian biology terms.

On a tangent there's an idea that modern society is just an attempt to recapture Roman Society without the reliance on slave labor.

A lawful good society that lived in the shadow of a powerful and sophisticated but essentially evil non-magical society could very well turn to magic for similar reasons.

That would create some profoundly interesting consequences.

Also, in an earlier post I discussed the potential power of magic-users, but I almost wonder if their extreme value might compromise that.

Bronze age cultures would often cripple their smiths and keep them in terrible ritual bondage so that the society couldn't lose their knowledge to other groups or the smiths own morals.

In an evil nation they could be a state owned resource, and even a good nation might be reluctant to let a potential arch-mage go rooting around in some dungeon when he could be making low level items or studying for the potion exams.

They could turn into something like Chinese Mandarins, heavily isolated from the people, awash with power, absolutely at the mercy of their nations generals and nobles, and beholden to ritual behaviour that would be certain to keep them in their station.

You mentioned earlier that you were doing a city based campaign.

This will sound... ...odd... ...but I actually thought the city state in that Darned DnD movie had an interesting model for a state in which magical might rather than political discourse alone was used to balance the traditional conflict between the prince and the nobility.

That was the Italian Renaissance with magic and bad acting.

Machiavelli would so have played a sorceror.

 

[Azure Trance]

For taxes and tithes, I use an older (in the 2E realm) Dragon magazine that extrapolated upon how taxes and tithes work, and how Player Characters can invest their loot into profitable ventures.

As for magic, in my campaign, wizards and sorcerors (or druids) cannot really be compelled to partake in major construction, there is generally no interest, unless you want to look like a hero or make up for a previous faux pas. There is a druidic liberation front, dedicated to halting any major encroachment upon Nature, who, if anything, would feel obligated to undo mage-built roads or bridges.

hellbender

what issue?

 

[bloodymage]

All taxes and tithes IMW go in my pocket! And I want more! Damn the magic, just give me the money that's rightfully mine! All of it!

 

[S'mon]

Re: Concession Taken and Exploited

Machiavelli would so have played a sorceror.

I think Machiavelli would've played a Wizard for the flexibility - probably an Enchantment/Charm specialist.

IMC mostly wizards fulfil the traditional role of viziers and magists to non-magical Lords. The evil Empire of the Red Wizards/Dark Empire of Hel lasted 120 years, ending 200 years ago, and was a theocratic magocratic totalitarian state remembered as a time of horror, so wizards in positions of power these days is a definite no-no. If power corrupts, magical power is particularly likely to do so - even non-evil Clerical theocracies tend to be on the harsh side, qv Theocracy of the Pale in Greyhawk.

 

[seasong]

Machiavelli: Rogue/Cleric. Rogue's got the skill points for all those history lores, cleric's got the social clout. The spells are just a nice bonus for a true master of men.

 

[Chrisling]

Origins of magic and such

My next-to-last D&D game was set in a world ruled by a 4000 year old lawful evil monk-wizard who did, in fact, make divine magic illegal save when approved by the state, and made all religions state religions. (This lead to a magical-priestly underground, of course, but that's a different story.) So I have great sympathy with the notion that it would be possible to turn magicians into a resource.

On the other hand, trying to tame wizards has potential drawbacks -- like a powerful and disgruntled wizard can do a LOT of damage. So it could definitely backfire to treat magicians like second-class citizens. But people, at different times, can do massively stupid things, hehe.

As another aside, and something someone on this list is apparently doing by limiting one of the nations in his game to fifth level and lower spells, the notion of a "magical tech level" could be interesting to explore. While it doesn't make too much sense for divine spellcasters -- tho' it could be argued even in that case, if one had sufficient zeal for it -- the idea that spell levels 1 through 9 instantly appearing in magicians' heads is pretty dodgy, to me. It could be that each spell level -- the ability to cast spells at that capacity -- had to be rigorously invented by legions of magicians. So, for instance, a society that didn't invest in magic might have spell levels up to, say, 3, while one that heavily invested in magic might have spells up to 9. A developed, robust culture of magic might "invent" spell levels past 9.

As another aside, if magicians are the same people who would become scientists or proto-scientists, what would the presence of magic mean for technological development? Almost all of your best "scientists" would be off learning magic! This could cripple technological development.

On yet another hand, I was thinking about some of the possibilities of spells and . . . what would be the use of, say, <i>wish</i> or (clearly my favorite set of spells) <i>planar binding</i> or <i>contact other plane</i> when it comes to technology? Consider. A magician raises a devil of knowledge who tells the wizard about this easy-to-make compound, and an easy-to-make weapon that rivals the most powerful destructive magics and can be used by illiterate peasants. Yes, of course, it's gunpowder and the devil teaches the magician how to make cannons and guns with it. This could become routine. Actually go through the effort of inventing? No, no. Technological progress, driven by magicians, might be negotiating with outsiders for inventions and the like -- and it has the potential to be much swifter than <i>research</i>. After all, what fiend wouldn't want to give the humans nuclear, biological and chemical weapons?

*more random thoughts*

 

[Chrisling]

Machiavelli was a good writer, an observant man and diplomat. Everything he actually did could be done with the expert class, or maybe the Courtier class out of Rokugan. ;p

The interesting discussion would be stuff like, "What is Cesare Borgia? Della Rovere? Ludivico Sforza?"

 

[Fast Learner]

Re: Origins of magic and such

On the other hand, trying to tame wizards has potential drawbacks -- like a powerful and disgruntled wizard can do a LOT of damage.

Hmm. Well, if those wizards didn't have access to damaging spells, the potential is seriously reduced. Remember that wizards needs spellbooks or scrolls, or lots of research. It's easy to imagine spellbooks being strictly rationed, with certain spells being available only to the most trusted or via the black market.

Sorcerers, on the other hand...