What does it mean to "Challenge the Character"?

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
This is more-or-less a repost of what I said: it seems to me quite hard to (i) allow that PCs have friends and family like Frances, and (ii) have those friends and family be part of the ingame situation, and (iii) maintain a strong player/GM divide over narration of the environment, yet (iv) never have the GM tell the players what their PC's think and feel.

In the case of equipment, the exact same problem is resolved by relaxing (iii) - the game permits the players to narrate those bits of the environment. My conclusion, in a post a few days ago based on a close reading of the 5e Basic PDF, is that the game assumes that (ii) is false - ie the game assumes that the action happens in places where the PCs are strangers and hence that friends and family won't be part of the active, ingame situation.

From what I can tell of [MENTION=6801228]Chaosmancer[/MENTION]'s reply to my post, he or she is asserting that two positions I hold are in conflict (one from this thread and one from another). Unfortunately, it just seems that the positions are misunderstood and in some sense conflated.

As for equipment, I would say most groups as a matter of practicality permit the player to establish during play where the equipment on his or her person may be found if the offer is reasonable - as decided upon by the DM. At least that has been very common in my experience. Some groups I've seen do establish equipment locations on the character sheet, though I think that was more common in previous editions of the game. In any case, so far as I can tell, the rules do not call this out as an exception to the player and DM roles. If the player says he or she wants the character to take the rope out of the backpack, the DM mediates between the players and the rules as appropriate (e.g., "Use an Object" in combat or the other rules for object interaction), sets limits as needed (e.g. "Your rope is in the previous chamber set up as a zip line to get across the pits, remember?"), and narrates the result of the adventurer's action. I make no judgment as to how granular about this anyone should be - that's a matter of taste.
 

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Guest 6801328

Guest
Would you agree that equipment is on the player side of the table? So that a player who declares I look in my backcpack and take out my rope isn't usurping the GM's role, even though that player has narrated the environment.

Funny, my answer was in the 2nd half of my post, but you only quoted the first half. Here; I'll re-post it for you:

Like all these things there are gray areas in the middle, of course, and I'm sure we could both come up with examples of players narrating a change in game state for advantage that would be fine. But the existence of twilight does not disprove the difference between day and night.

So, no, I'm not going to argue about which side of the line mundane equipment carried by the character lies.
 

pemerton

Legend
Funny, my answer was in the 2nd half of my post, but you only quoted the first half. Here; I'll re-post it for you
I didn't realise that you were referring to equipment in that passage. I'm surprised that you think equipment - which is a central feature of D&D RPGing - is some sort of marginal or "twlight" example of game play.

So, no, I'm not going to argue about which side of the line mundane equipment carried by the character lies.
Well, I wasn't asking you to argue! But I was wondering if you agree with me that - clearly, it seems to me - the player gets to narrate taing stuff out of his/her (which is to say, his/her PC's) backpack

My surprise that you think the rules are ambiguous on this is genuine, given how central equpiment is. My own view is that the way equipment is to be handled is clear. And that it's an obvious exception to the "GM narrates environment" principle.

As for equipment, I would say most groups as a matter of practicality permit the player to establish during play where the equipment on his or her person may be found if the offer is reasonable - as decided upon by the DM. At least that has been very common in my experience. Some groups I've seen do establish equipment locations on the character sheet, though I think that was more common in previous editions of the game. In any case, so far as I can tell, the rules do not call this out as an exception to the player and DM roles. If the player says he or she wants the character to take the rope out of the backpack, the DM mediates between the players and the rules as appropriate (e.g., "Use an Object" in combat or the other rules for object interaction), sets limits as needed (e.g. "Your rope is in the previous chamber set up as a zip line to get across the pits, remember?"), and narrates the result of the adventurer's action. I make no judgment as to how granular about this anyone should be - that's a matter of taste.
The GM remininding a player that the rope got left behind, or oversseing the action economy in respect of using objects, is no different from the GM reminding a player that s/he has no spell slots left, or overseeing the action econoy in respect of casting spells. The exception I'm pointing to is in relation to establishing the ingame environment. When it comes to equipment, in standad D&D play, I don't think the GM takes the lead in this respect. The Basic PDF (p 4) says that

Each character brings particular capabilities to the adventure in the form of ability scores and skills, class features, racial traits, equipment, and magic items.​

I think that makes it fairly clear which side of the player/GM divide management of equipment as an available component of the environment is meant to fall. (And I think a particularly clear case of that would be material components for spells.)
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
I wasn't planning on jumping into this thread, and this post is far back in this thread, but were you [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION], not the one who told me repeatedly in the insight thread that the DM cannot and should not tell a player what they think?

This was your justification for players having knowledge of monsters that they otherwise might not have, because the player got to decide what was reasonable for them to know, and the DM could never tell them that they could not think that.

So, since this "Francis the Guard" example evolved from the "Orc Elder" example of hearing stories which told them the weaknesses of monsters, where does it go to far?

Is the player correct about having been raised in an orphanage?
Is the player correct that they were raised with a boy named Franics at said orphanage?
Is the player correct that Francis and the PC were very close and dear friends?
Is the player correct that this guard looks like Francis?
Is the player correct that this guard is Francis?
Is the player correct in that Francis the Guard still thinks of them as a friend and wants to help them out?

My guess is that you would try and cut this off at the point that the guard actually is Francis, they may look like Francis, but they are not actually Francis. That seems like a nice clean cut point between telling the player what they think, and allowing the player to affect the narrative.

What do we do if the player then insists, "But I know Francis is a guard in this town, we had drinks before I left on my grand adventure."

Is the PC delusional or does Francis the Guard exist? IF we can never tell the player that they cannot know something, because we cannot tell them what to think, how do we resolve this?

Is it not okay to tell them what they think, but it is okay to tell them they are delusional and unable to tell reality from fiction? That seems to be a pretty major thing to force upon a player.




Now this is fairly reasonable, I'm guessing from the XP this is the way [MENTION=97077]iserith[/MENTION] is going to explain the difference between their current and former positions.




Wow. That's... definitely different.
Do me a favor and leave me out of your gotcha posts against other posters. Thanks.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
Would you agree that equipment is on the player side of the table? So that a player who declares I look in my backcpack and take out my rope isn't usurping the GM's role, even though that player has narrated the environment.
Thus seems like you're trying to smear one thing into another. On one hand, there's the limited authority of the player to use ingame resources to acquire equipment that is persistent until expended. On the other, there's a suggestion that a player can freely add to the environment new fictional elements that modify the GM's narration of scene.

Your argument seems to be a smearing of the limited authority allowed to the accumlation of equipment to wholesale ability to propose new fiction into the scene. You do this be claiming that a character pulling rope from a backpack is also a proposal of new fiction into the scene, but this fails because the rope, as equipment, was established a priori and is a persistent piece of fiction. No contemporary authoring has occurred. This categorically seperates it ftom the proposal that the guard is an old friend.
 

Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
This is more-or-less a repost of what I said: it seems to me quite hard to (i) allow that PCs have friends and family like Frances, and (ii) have those friends and family be part of the ingame situation, and (iii) maintain a strong player/GM divide over narration of the environment, yet (iv) never have the GM tell the players what their PC's think and feel.

In the case of equipment, the exact same problem is resolved by relaxing (iii) - the game permits the players to narrate those bits of the environment. My conclusion, in a post a few days ago based on a close reading of the 5e Basic PDF, is that the game assumes that (ii) is false - ie the game assumes that the action happens in places where the PCs are strangers and hence that friends and family won't be part of the active, ingame situation.

Again, you example of iii) isn't the "rekaxation" you suppose. Further, just because you find it difficult to concueve doesn't mean much, as per your contemporary example of biases in thinking about social sciences. Another example of this is your claim that the 5e rules require ii) to be false.

Come on, man, look past your personal biases. I know these games (like 5e) absolutely frustrate you as a player, but that doesn't mean that having rope must be an usurpation of GM authority or that the rules require adventure only with strangers or that it's impossible to have play including PC friends and family without telling player what their characters think and feel.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
The GM remininding a player that the rope got left behind, or oversseing the action economy in respect of using objects, is no different from the GM reminding a player that s/he has no spell slots left, or overseeing the action econoy in respect of casting spells. The exception I'm pointing to is in relation to establishing the ingame environment. When it comes to equipment, in standad D&D play, I don't think the GM takes the lead in this respect. The Basic PDF (p 4) says that

Each character brings particular capabilities to the adventure in the form of ability scores and skills, class features, racial traits, equipment, and magic items.​

I think that makes it fairly clear which side of the player/GM divide management of equipment as an available component of the environment is meant to fall. (And I think a particularly clear case of that would be material components for spells.)

I think that's a pretty big reach to try and get to a position that the player is empowered to add new elements to the environment. Nothing about the above statement leads me to believe it's an exception to the standard adjudication process either.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I'm going to cut out all the objectionable parts and try to respond to just the core of your questions...

So, since this "Francis the Guard" example....

Is the player correct about having been raised in an orphanage?

That depends. Was it established before play began that the player character was raised in an orphanage, or is this call being made spontaneously during play? Normally, a player should expect to have his backstory vetted by the GM before play, and any major points of play he wants to be established in the fiction should be included in the backstory. For example, a player ought not to expect that they can insist that they are a traveler from another dimension ("Earth") or that they are a cartoon character that was animated by a powerful magic, or anything else that would be wholly and completely novel in the setting without buy in from the GM. Indeed, pretty much everything in a backstory ought to be negotiated with a GM before play. Once the backstory is established as being in fiction and part of the setting, both the GM and the player can expect to make calls using it, but GM's should be careful about trying to impose new backstory on a player against their wishes and respect their wishes if the player strongly objects. Likewise, if a player calls something new based on his backstory, the player should expect that certain calls which are inappropriate to the setting or story or which seem to be being made solely for gamist reasons (ei, to gain some mechanical advantage) might get vetoed.

If it's established that you were an orphan, it's probably a reasonable call that you were raised in an orphanage.

Is the player correct that they were raised with a boy named Franics (sic) at said orphanage?

Was it in the player's backstory prior to the beginning of play? If so they were correct. If it wasn't, they are only possibly correct. In general, if it was established that the player grew up in an orphanage, there is nothing unreasonably about claiming that you knew someone named Francis (assuming Francis is the sort of name NPC's have in the setting).

Is the player correct that Francis and the PC were very close and dear friends?

While all the above comments still apply, sure, why not?

Is the player correct that this guard looks like Francis?

Again, while all the above comments still apply, sure, why not?

Is the player correct that this guard is Francis?

Here is where things get really dicey. It's generally considered poor form to try to use your backstory to gain mechanical advantage above and beyond what is written on your character sheet. 5e D&D has no built in "contacts"/"circles"/"allies" check and no built in way to list such things as preexisting in the setting. In a game that did have such things, "Francis" would need to be written down in a column somewhere which had a finite number of called out allies, and a suitable description establishing that they were a guard in a particular location. In that case, the player by calling out "Francis" from his character sheet would be doing something similar to calling out the rope in his backpack that was part of the preestablished fiction. The player would have some mechanical device for negotiating with the GM regarding the narrative and establishing the truth of something in the fiction. He might perhaps get a "circle test", and might have some reduced difficulty of some sort because Francis was a known established resource. Then the fortune mechanics of the game would establish whether this was indeed Francis in a way that everyone had agreed was fair and reasonable prior to play.

None of this is true of 5e. There is no mechanics available to the player for negotiating what is in the setting. This means that the situation has to be resolved by fiat, and in D&D, only the GM has fiat authority. Players can't establish things by fiat. They can only propose things that they want their character to try to do. The general rule about this is, "Could you as a real person cause someone to be someone you wanted them to be merely by wanting it to be so?" No, you can't imagine the way you want reality to work, and therefore make it so. Since normal people can't simply alter reality with wishes, your character needs some sort of explicit power or resource that they can call upon to alter reality. Essentially, they need some sort of packetized narrative force (like a spell or power). No such power exists in D&D so far as I know, short of something like spending a Wish.

So chances are, the player is NOT correct this is Francis. The player can make a call like, "Is this guard Francis?", but the GM has no way of deciding that in D&D except by fiat, so he has to make a ruling. Since rulings are outside the written rules, it's entirely up to the GM how to handle this and none of the ways are wrong. He might say "Yes." He might say "No." He might give a flat percentage chance that it is so? (If that is the case, in some games the player might have some power of Luck that modifies random rolls, and that might be applicable.) Or he might invent some sort of test on the spot that seems good to the GM. But while you can propose, "Is this guard Francis?", you can no more make it so than you can propose, "I jump over the Ocean in a single bound." Less, because the second is an action, while the first is simply a question.

Imagine the consequences of violating this simple and obvious interpretation of the process of play. If a PC can propose, "This guard is Francis.", can they also propose, "This chest contains 10,000 gold pieces?" Can they propose, "I once saved this Red Dragon's life by healing it of Dragon Pox." Are you seriously advocating for a process of play where every statement a player makes about the environment is a statement of fact? Such a process of play might be suitable for Toon - but even Toon has the rule "only if it is funny" - but probably not for a game intended to be serious.

Is the player correct in that Francis the Guard still thinks of them as a friend and wants to help them out?

Depends on what has been established about Francis before this moment of play. The player could be correct that Francis is Guard still thinks of them as a friend and wants to help them out, but that has no bearing over whether this is Francis and he is here right at this moment. That's the thing that is really at stake.

What do we do if the player then insists, "But I know Francis is a guard in this town, we had drinks before I left on my grand adventure."

Well, again, that depends on what has been established prior to this moment of play. The player might well be correct about that, but that doesn't establish that this is Francis right now at this moment. The GM isn't obligated to even say that this guard looks like Francis. He might say, "No, the guards at the gate are orcs that look nothing like Francis." What has happened to Francis, might be an interesting thing to resolve during play, but it's not up to the player to decide the answer to that - only to uncover what that answer is, if they can.

Is the PC delusional or does Francis the Guard exist? IF we can never tell the player that they cannot know something, because we cannot tell them what to think, how do we resolve this?

You're creating a false dilemma. A player is always free to establish that the PC is delusional, and if he insists on something false to facts regarding the setting, then the player is making the claim that his PC is delusional. A player could decide that, all facts to the contrary, the PC believes this is Francis. That is the player's prerogative. But the player cannot establish the facts of the setting except as provided for by the process of play. As a GM, I would be perfectly happy telling the player, "This is not Francis." That's a statement of fact. I might be happy telling them, "You aren't certain if this Francis or not.", depending on whether I think the player could tell if this is Francis. But I really can't tell the player, "Your character doesn't believe that this is Francis." if they want to insist that the character believes that it is. That highly unusual stance might require some negotiation so that I understand what the player intends, but again, if the player insists the character has false to facts beliefs and the player understands that they are false to facts, I'm not going to overrule them and tell them to play otherwise. Presumably the player has a good reason of their own for playing that way, and I'll try to facilitate that role play.

Is it not okay to tell them what they think, but it is okay to tell them they are delusional and unable to tell reality from fiction? That seems to be a pretty major thing to force upon a player.

This is where the whole statement gets ridiculous and turned on its head. I didn't tell the player that their character is delusional and unable to tell reality from fiction. The player told me that. I didn't force anything on the player. If I tell the player that a wall is 30' high and they tell me that no, it's 3' high, and they want to step over it, then they can RP out that as they like, but the wall will be 30' high and they will only be getting over it as provided by the game's process resolution. If I tell a player that the chest contains copper coins, and they tell me that the character believes that they are gold, fine. But that assertion about the player character's internal mental state does not alchemically change copper to gold. If we are going to adopt a rule where everything the character believes is true, then the character becomes immediately more powerful than the gods in my campaign world, because that character now has the power of fiat.
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
I didn't realise that you were referring to equipment in that passage. I'm surprised that you think equipment - which is a central feature of D&D RPGing - is some sort of marginal or "twlight" example of game play.

Well, I wasn't asking you to argue! But I was wondering if you agree with me that - clearly, it seems to me - the player gets to narrate taing stuff out of his/her (which is to say, his/her PC's) backpack

My surprise that you think the rules are ambiguous on this is genuine, given how central equpiment is. My own view is that the way equipment is to be handled is clear. And that it's an obvious exception to the "GM narrates environment" principle.

The GM remininding a player that the rope got left behind, or oversseing the action economy in respect of using objects, is no different from the GM reminding a player that s/he has no spell slots left, or overseeing the action econoy in respect of casting spells. The exception I'm pointing to is in relation to establishing the ingame environment. When it comes to equipment, in standad D&D play, I don't think the GM takes the lead in this respect. The Basic PDF (p 4) says that

Each character brings particular capabilities to the adventure in the form of ability scores and skills, class features, racial traits, equipment, and magic items.​

I think that makes it fairly clear which side of the player/GM divide management of equipment as an available component of the environment is meant to fall. (And I think a particularly clear case of that would be material components for spells.)

You are making assumptions about my position that are incorrect.

Some tables track equipment assiduously. Others think it’s unnecessary and boring bookkeeping and don’t bother. It’s enough for them to say “you could easily have packed rope if we tracked those things so yes you have it if you say so.”

I don’t think it’s an illuminating or interesting exploration of “player narration altering the environment for advantage.” Except for people who need or want a strict definition of where the boundary is. And I don’t.
 

iserith

Magic Wordsmith
I don’t think it’s an illuminating or interesting exploration of “player narration altering the environment for advantage.” Except for people who need or want a strict definition of where the boundary is. And I don’t.

The boundaries seem pretty clear to me as far as the rules of the game are concerned, but in any practical sense who may establish what is going to vary quite a bit from table to table. While I take a hard line on what the rules say, at the table I may be perfectly willing to accept Frances is an old friend of a character if the player makes that offer. It depends on what I think about that in that moment. If I hadn't set up the guard interaction specifically as a social interaction challenge for the players to overcome, then I'm likely to see this as no big deal. If the guards are part of a social interaction challenge, then I may say that the guard isn't Frances and isn't the PC's friend. The player is going to have to do some work to achieve that goal.

It seems weird to me to press the idea of players establishing the environment by citing rules related to equipment though. I mean, I get why someone would want to find their preferred playstyle is supported by the rules, but I think we'd need to look to D&D 4e for that, not D&D 5e. In the former, I'm way more open to players establishing fiction outside of their characters because the rules of that game support it. In D&D 5e, sometimes yes, sometimes no.
 

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