What (else) got the shaft in 3E?

[Frostmarrow]

Ah, but there is. There ARE ways to limit spellcasting, besides slowing their progression. How about forbidden schools, or if not entire schools, forbidden spells? Look at the Elemental Savant, which many feel is far too powerful. Wouldn't it make sense to forbid Fire Savants from learning Cold or Water-related spells? Or take the Mindbender, a master of subtlety. Instead of losing 4 spell casting levels, forbid him from learning flashy energy spells: no lightning, fire, cold, or acid spells, but he can learn force spells (and maybe sonic). This may not totally balance the benefits (why would a fire wizard learn cold spells in the first place?) but it's somewhat better than the current system, where they lose next to nothing, or they lose too much.

Or instead of forbidden schools, place other restrictions on their spellcasting. Imagine spellcasters that need to spend a full round to cast spells, or ones that must pay an extra spell level for any metamagic modifications, or ones that cannot use physical weapons at all, or ones that must YELL any verbal components when casting spells.

Suggestion: Different classes get to cast different spells at different levels. Cure Light Wounds for example is a first level spell for a cleric but a second level spell for a ranger. This shows that it's possible to rate spells differently. Let's say an evoker get evokation spells one level earlier than generalists but get the rest of the schools one level later. This would mean that the evoker cast magic missile as a 0 level spell and fireball as a 2nd level spell. On the other hand he would cast charm person or summon monster I as 2nd level spells as well. That could work.

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

6) Clerics may be a bit over-the-top...but no one wants to play Dr. Heal All....it's frustrating only being useful passively, never actively. So they need a bit more to make them desirable. (trust me....I had a player playing a white mage in my last campaign....my white mage is basically a cleric with anything that blows stuff up removed, and focused really tightly on the healing...she didn't have much fun).

Well, there's the problem. Clerics aren't underpowered, the players running them just don't realize how overpowered they are (and always have been)!

In the campaigns I've played in, the Cleric has often been the most powerful member of the party, and often the leader- here's why:

#1- They're combat monsters. They may only have a moderate attack progression, and generally their physical stats are lower than the front-line warriors- BUT- they can wear any armor. They can wield any weapon they have proficiency in (advice: Frontload a level of Paladin with a high Charisma- instant martial weapon proficiency, ten hit points, saving throw bonus, detect evil... WOW!). On top of that, they have BUFFING SPELLS- forget about feats, just look through their spell list! Combine with magic weapons and the heaviest armor you can afford, and you'll kick as much rear as the Fighter or Barbarian in the party.

#2- Spells. Wow. Especially with the domains- take a look at War... since when should a cleric even be allowed to have POWER WORD: KILL??? Not to mention Destruction, Slay Living, Implosion, Flame Strike, Harm, and all the Inflict spells- you're a damage dealing machine. If you can get yourself a pair of wings of flying or some way of casting spectral hand, you're really in business.

#3- Charisma. This ability is often overlooked, mainly because Charisma has historically been a dump stat for "Captain Heal-Me". It shouldn't be. Rely on magic items and buffing spells to make up your physical stats, and don't even worry about dex- you should be armored to the teeth anyway, and leave ranged combat for spells. Charisma gives you the ability to Turn Undead- an extremely useful ability. It gives you a bonus to your Diplomacy skill- unless you're planning for epic levels, you should be pumping as many points as you can into this ability. Make yourself the leader and spokesman for your party. Not only that, if you take my advice and frontload a Paladin level, that high Charisma = Great Saves, especially for a Cleric.

Of course, this cleric nerfing does get somewhat tiresome. I'd really like to see, for once, a Cleric who didn't have access to the War domain and one that wasn't armored like an Abrams tank... but clerics are anything but just healers.

 

[Victim]

High level monks aren't exactly terrors. I've had to completely rebuild a 15th level monk created by an experienced player because, while +17 attacks are good at 9th level, but not at 15th. Like most of the PCs, enemy ACs would be around 30, usually without haste activated. While he could beat up enemy mooks and not get hit, real threats would be able to ignore his pathetic attacks. And someone with Cleave or Great Cleave would be better at attacking loser enemies anyway. Even after I rebuilt the character, his damage per attack was pretty low, so he'd be almost worthless when he ran into enemies with more than DRX/+2.

Clerics that are forced into passivity are either low level, or choosing that role for themselves. Remember, if you beat on a monster or blast it with spells, it does less damage. An aggressive cleric is just using preventive healing.

 

[hong]

You guys are all talking about PCs, but I'm rooting for the monsters. What about all the monsters that got the shaft? Huh? Does nobody agree with me that giants got screwed around with? Huh?

Err, no. Giants now are probably deadlier than in 1E and 2E. The problem is that they're "dumb brute" monsters, and these generally need heavy magical backup if they're to be more than a nuisance against high-level PCs.

 

[The_Gneech]

Rangers are only shafted because of the same reasons the bard is, and the Monk -- people want them to fill a niche that they just don't fill. Ranger = Stealthy Fighter (NOT two-handed kick-butt roxxors!) Bard = Jack of All Trades/Charm Mage (NOT singy-songy magic man). Monk = Survivor (NOT bare-fisted Fighter)

Yesh, well, they should have been built to fill those niches, shouldn't they!

-The Gneech

 

[DustTC]

Re: Re: What (else) got the shaft in 3E?

3) Druids have no role in the party. Seems to me spells like Bull's Strength and Cat's Grace certainly belong in their repetoire, and following along that line of thought, I think druids would make the ideal buffers (as in "one who applies buffs").

Don't forget to leave the dungeons and see the sun every once in a while.

In my last session, the group's Druid pulled off one of his little stunts again... it was stormy day and he had made a spot check to see a group of 6 trolls before they spotted the group. Proceeds to cast Call Lightning, then changes to hawk, flies off and spots the trolls and annihilates the lot of them in 2 rounds with call lightning followed up with flamestrike (lvl 8 Druid). Some oil to burn the corpses when he landed next to the charred remains 2 rounds later did the rest.

The versatility of a Druid is just plain amazing. This guy has been filling melee, buffing (get BOEM with the 'mark of' spells), weakening, big dmg caster, scouting *and* healing roles in the party (and been excellent at all of them). Then if you forget to make sure he has to fight with a roof over his head, things really get nasty for the poor DM.

 

[Storminator]

High level monks aren't exactly terrors. I've had to completely rebuild a 15th level monk created by an experienced player because, while +17 attacks are good at 9th level, but not at 15th. Like most of the PCs, enemy ACs would be around 30, usually without haste activated. While he could beat up enemy mooks and not get hit, real threats would be able to ignore his pathetic attacks. And someone with Cleave or Great Cleave would be better at attacking loser enemies anyway. Even after I rebuilt the character, his damage per attack was pretty low, so he'd be almost worthless when he ran into enemies with more than DRX/+2.

<SNIP>

I'm doing quite well with my 15th level monk. I do suffer from inexperience with high-level play, and needed to redo his equipment after some playtesting (fortunately that worked into the campaign), but one of the fighters in my group feels my monk has made him worthless.

I have +20 to hit when flurrying, which isn't spectacular, but it's decent. But I do a fair bit of damage on each hit: 1d12 + 10 +2d6 crit 18/x3. I got the Bracers of Striking, which can be enchanted like a weapon, and put Impact (Keen equivalent) and Vicious on them (and +4 enhancement). The Vicious deals an extra 2d6, but I take 1d6. Since I never get hit the 1d6 is irrelavent. With Impact and Improved Crit, my threat range goes to 18, and I have the Cobra Strike feat from Beyond Monk, which allows me to burn a Stunning Fist to up the crit multiplier. I can easily do 60 damage on a crit, and I get 5 attacks per round. Next level I go to d20 damage, and I can't wait to do 3d20 +30 +2d6...

And I can jump 100', move 80', dimension door, immune to everything, AC ~40, lowest save of +15...

PS

 

[KnowTheToe]

Small monks. I can't believe everybody is hung up on sorcerers and specialist wizards when with small monks there is nothing subjective about it. They get the shaft plain and simply. Lower damage and speed by 30%--who thought of this and were they on crack?

Last time I checked, STR15 = STR15 regardless of what size the creature/character is. No other class penalizes characters by size. And if small characters are slower, they should be slower regardless of race. And it just gets worse as they advance because the disparity grows. At lvl20 speed is 60 vs. 90, and damage is 2d6 vs. 1d20.

To me the small sizes are over powered. Why you ask, because they both have a + to a stat and no neg. Sure they have a neg -2 to strength, but that is a size modifier not a racial modifier. They trade that for AC bonuses, BAB Bonuses, & Hide Bonuses. A halfling can carry a much higher percentage of body weight. Equipment is .25% of actual weight for food, & armor etc. They can carry .75% of what their str will allow. How an average 2.5' tall creature could have a str of 8 boggles my mind. I hate 3E halflings because they seem to just be a stack of stats with no rhyme or reason. I spit on halflings, Paateewyy!!

 

[Henry]

Small monks. I can't believe everybody is hung up on sorcerers and specialist wizards when with small monks there is nothing subjective about it. They get the shaft plain and simply. Lower damage and speed by 30%--who thought of this and were they on crack?

Last time I checked, STR15 = STR15 regardless of what size the creature/character is. No other class penalizes characters by size. And if small characters are slower, they should be slower regardless of race. And it just gets worse as they advance because the disparity grows. At lvl20 speed is 60 vs. 90, and damage is 2d6 vs. 1d20.

Actually, the combat classes (Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, Paladin) are also penalized with respect to small characters. You are forgetting two things:

1. Small characters typically use weapons that are one size smaller (and correspondingly one damage die smaller)
2. They also have lesser carrying capacities (x3/4 as opposed to x1).

So they are penalized pretty severely with no compensating bonus. They should at least have improved defense in the form of a better AC bonus, or compensate lower damage with higher BAB. As it is, you get screwed if god forbid you want to play a small monk because you will be 4 levels behind a medium monk in damage, and almost 5 levels behind him in speed. And all that for...nothing. Preposterous.

Small fighters are one damage die behind their cousins for their ENTIRE EXISTANCES. The disparity you note is not in terms of levels, but in terms of die sizes. They stay, and remain, one die size lower, the same as fighter-types. Correspondingly, they are proportionately slower on their speeds, so no disparity there.

However, I want to point out that they DO get bonuses to compensate. take halfings by example - +1 to thrown weapons, +1 to ALL saves, +1 to Armor class, and +1 to hit. Those are QUITE compensatory advantages! So they already get the bonuses you desire - because they are small!

 

[National Acrobat]

Of course, this cleric nerfing does get somewhat tiresome. I'd really like to see, for once, a Cleric who didn't have access to the War domain and one that wasn't armored like an Abrams tank... but clerics are anything but just healers.

I for one am doing that. My current character is a cleric/divine disciple of Velsharoon. I am an elf with an 18 dex who has weapon finesse with touch spells. It is very interesting how effective of a combat person you can be with that combination.