Level Up (A5E) [+] What features should a "Advanced 5E" have?

[Tales and Chronicles]

A lot of good ideas that I won't bother repeating, but I've had an idea for a while that I thought could be cool...

What if there was class-specific Reactions in addition to the basic Attack of Opportunity? But like, not a ton of them ala 4e, just 1 signature one per class. Like the Fighter would automatically get the one from Sentinel where they attack someone who attacks an ally, the Wizards would be able to burn spell slots on Shielding themselves (without having to prepare or learn the Shield spell), the Bard c

That reminds me:

- Bards should have A) an aura where you apply varying effect based on songs (action to maintain? Concentration?) or B) at-will inspiration, like the Expert from the Sidekick rules.

Lvl 1: Bonus action Help within 10 metres
lvl 5: +1d6 when you Help, if its an attack or healing spell you can add it to damage/recovery instead.
Lvl 11: Help targets 2 allies
lvl 15: +2d6 when using Help

 

[Haldrik]

Why?
Rogues aren’t inspirational, IMO, nor can they normally affect groups of people into emotional displays, quiet a savage beast, or any number of other things bards one stories can do. Nor should Bards be Sneak Attacking as their primary combat contribution.

IRL, work songs literally make people work harder, and more effectively. It’s easy to imagine a bard giving bonuses to saves against Exhaustion without casting any spell or doing any overt magic.

Rogues are appropriate for a nonmagic Minstrel or Troubadour. The original 1e Bard is a Fighter/Thief. So, this version of a Minstrel is a heavy-hitting damage dealer, with stealth capability.

There are charming and persuasive Rogue traditions. This Charisma can function as an entertainer.



The 5e Bard is a fullcaster. To ask for a nonmagic Wizard class, is like asking for a nonmagic Bard class. Or a nonmagic Cleric. Or a nonmagic Warlock. Or a nonmagic Sorcerer. The Bard is a completely magic archetype that returns to a mythologically accurate Bard according to Welsh and other British ethnicities, with inspiration from Bards like Merlin and Taliesin. The 5e Bard is ethnically sensitive. It is a reallife sacred concept.

By contrast a Minstrel or a Troubadour is a nonmagic concept, from Medieval cultures across Europe, known for entertaining music, political propaganda, and news dissemination. They tend to have a "roguish" life, in the sense of intermingling aristocracy and commoners.



It is possible to make the Minstrel a "prestige class", by designing it as an archetype that any class can take. So a Fighter or a Rogue, or even a Sorcerer or Warlock, could be a Minstrel. Alternatively, this "prestige class" could be a miniclass from levels 1 to 4 and-or 5 to 8, that any class can multi into. Note, low level features can automatically improve while leveling if they depend on character level. So gaining an ability at level 3 can still be effective at level 20.



Depending on how powerful the Minstrel features are, it could even be a Background that offers a meaningful asset in the form of benefits while playing music. Or it could be a feat, comparing to the recent UA Chef feat.



The most important thing is to decide on the features that a nonmagic Minstrel should do. Then the most useful design space to implement it should be relatively obvious.

 

[Helldritch]

I really hope @Morrus and the team don’t feel constrained by this mentality.
Make the game you want to make. Rename it if you need to.

AiME removes stuff and experiments with sacred cow areas of the game. It’s a great 5e powered game.

Playing it safe won’t get you anywhere.

If it is not recognizable as 5ed, it simply won't sell. Critics will make it go down the drain and I want to avoid this at all costs.

It is not that I want or that they want to play it safe. It is supposed to be a crunchier 5ed with full retroactivity. For me this means clarification of some rules, addition of rules/class features/spells and others of which you can either take or not. Take My BBEG mod for example:

Single encounter big bad guys (BBEG and Daily Solo)
1) *Add 1 feat/ASI per 4 CR (save the first four) (not for solo encounters, end bosses only)
2) Add 1 legendary action per PC above 4. (if none, you can add one attack or keep it at no legendary actions)
3) Multiply HP by 1 +0.25 per PC above 4.
4) Add 1.5 AC (round up) per PC above 4.
The players never see the difference between the "official" and the modified version. I created it because my groups are bigger than 4. BBEG have a lot of trouble against 5 and 6+ players strong party. With this, it is fully recognizable as 5ed, and it is not hard to retrofit a BBEG to its original. In fact, it can be done on the fly. This does not take a lot of space and can be done under two minutes. I am currently reading MOoT and even the Mythical encounters will benefit from this.

The "*" is simply because I count class features as a feat too. Depending on the CR and Type, I can even add a 20th level class feature if I deem it worthy/interesing/surprising. If I want to make a solo encounter that is not a BBEG but that should be a challenge; I simply do number 2 to 4. And again, it works, people looking our games from the outside see the fight and are ready to swear that the BBEG was not modified unless they watch my notes. Because I am often with the BBEG entry in the MM as a reference. And just doing number 3 and 4, if your players are a bit too weak and you feel sad for them, is and can be enough.

This is a simple example of what Enworld could do in A5ed. This would be relatively minor addition, but with a big impact. And yet, it will still be easily recognizable as a 5ed. If they want to take this as a basis for they own version of my rule, I give them permission right here and now.

There are many possibilities that can be done. But everything should make a crunchier 5ed. Not create a new entirely different game.

 

[Haldrik]

It’s a metaphor. It means something revered and worth preserving. That’s not insulting it’s true.

Yeah, but in D&D fandom, the term "sacred cow" which refers to Hinduism gets used ironically, with a pejorative intent. While originally humorous, it seems overall insulting. Unintentionally.

I use the term myself. But now in an era of heightened sensitivity with regard to the identities of other people, I am wondering if I should.

The six ability scores have worked for almost fifty years. They are an integral part of D&D like AC, Hp, and Alignment. They work, not just for 5e but for Paizo, d20 and a dozen other spin offs compromising the lions share of the RPG market.

The six ability scores suffer from the QWERTY keyboard effect. The complexity of D&D (and RPGs generally) requires gamers to invest significant time and effort to master it. This investment itself creates a familiarity and a commitment to the QWERTY/six-ability tradition, despite it being inefficient.



I am decreasingly tolerant of the bad design of the six abilities.

 

[Helldritch]

That reminds me:

- Bards should have A) an aura where you apply varying effect based on songs (action to maintain? Concentration?) or B) at-will inspiration, like the Expert from the Sidekick rules.

Lvl 1: Bonus action Help within 10 metres
lvl 5: +1d6 when you Help, if its an attack or healing spell you can add it to damage/recovery instead.
Lvl 11: Help targets 2 allies
lvl 15: +2d6 when using Help

Yes and no. But I really love it! Do
At Level 3, here is a new subclass, the Skald...
Lvl 3: Bonus action Reaction: Help within 10 metres, Bonus proficiency medium armor and shield.
lvl 6: +1d6 when you Help, if its an attack or healing spell you can add it to damage/recovery instead.
Lvl 14: Help targets 2 allies if they are within 1 meter of each other (5 feet).

I don't know, but we might have a strong new subclass for the bard here. A bard entirely devoted to help its friends. Might not seems that strong but if you count the bardic inspiration and the help action, having a Skald would be a great addition. Details could be worked out for balance but you had a great idea!

 

[Helldritch]

The six ability scores suffer from the QWERTY keyboard effect. The complexity of D&D (and RPGs generally) requires gamers to invest significant time and effort to master it. This investment itself creates a familiarity and a commitment to the QWERTY/six-ability tradition, despite it being inefficient.

I am decreasingly tolerant of the bad design of the six abilities.

Then play an other game (no sarcasm intended, no demeaning intent). The six ability scores are a trade mark of D&D since the begining. They tried to add a 7th ability score and it was "so well received" that it was dumped in the 2nd edition of the game a few years later. Players of D&D are attached to some of their pet peeve. Removing them, means that it is no longer D&D and thus, will not sell. Why do you think PF worked so well? Because 4ed was a bit too removed from D&D that some people did not recognized it as such. Thus, PF was considered by many to be D&D. (And I am a 4ed fan. I really liked it. I am just retelling what I was hearing from the 4ed detractors).

There are things that will need to be kept. But nothing prevents us from improving them. As long as they stay as recognizable as D&D 5ed.

 

[Haldrik]

Then play an other game (no sarcasm intended, no demeaning intent). The six ability scores are a trade mark of D&D since the begining. They tried to add a 7th ability score and it was "so well received" that it was dumped in the 2nd edition of the game a few years later. Players of D&D are attached to some of their pet peeve. Removing them, means that it is no longer D&D and thus, will not sell. Why do you think PF worked so well? Because 4ed was a bit too removed from D&D that some people did not recognized it as such. Thus, PF was considered by many to be D&D. (And I am a 4ed fan. I really liked it. I am just retelling what I was hearing from the 4ed detractors).

There are things that will need to be kept. But nothing prevents us from improving them. As long as they stay as recognizable as D&D 5ed.

I am comfortable, loving D&D and wanting to see D&D to continue to improve.

Where there are certain areas of the D&D gaming system that seem weaker than the rest of the system, I feel free to critique D&D lovingly.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Yes and no. But I really love it! Do
At Level 3, here is a new subclass, the Skald...
Lvl 3: Bonus action Reaction: Help within 10 metres, Bonus proficiency medium armor and shield.
lvl 6: +1d6 when you Help, if its an attack or healing spell you can add it to damage/recovery instead.
Lvl 14: Help targets 2 allies if they are within 1 meter of each other (5 feet).

I don't know, but we might have a strong new subclass for the bard here. A bard entirely devoted to help its friends. Might not seems that strong but if you count the bardic inspiration and the help action, having a Skald would be a great addition. Details could be worked out for balance but you had a great idea!

Nice. I would start the archetypes at 1st level though, because it always felt weird that you had to built your bard at first with the idea that you only had a few available weapons and only light armors, then at 3rd you unlocked medium armor, martial weapons and shield, meaning if you boosted your Dex to go rapier + light armor at 1st level, your new proficiencies were lost, or you built in advance to use a str-weapon and heavier armor +shield, but your damage and damage for 3 level were abysmal.

In ''Tales from the Borderland'' which is my table's 5e-lite system I created, this is what I went with two archetypes A) Valor/Skald/Warchanter and B) the loremaster, both starting at level 1 (in my system, all archetypes starts at 1. Note also: my system does not have spells).

Hit Points: 1d8 + your CON score.
Armor: light armor
Weapons: simple weapons
Skills: Choose any 3 and three musical instruments of your choice

Level	Description
1	College: Choose between Lore and Valor. Bonds of friendship: As an action, you can choose two willing creatures you can see within 30 feet of you (this can include yourself) and create a spirit bond between them. While either bonded creature is within 30 feet of the other, the creature can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to an attack roll, an ability check, or a save it makes. Each creature can add the d4 no more than once per turn. The bond lasts for 1 hour or until you use this feature again. 2/rest. Chant of help: You can take the Help action as a bonus action to help a creature within 30 ft of you.
2	Jack of all trades: You add half your proficiency bonus to all untrained skill check you make. Song of rest (1d6): If you or any friendly creatures who can hear you regain hit points by spending Hit Dice at the end of a rest, each creature regains an extra 1d6 hit points.
5	Inspiring help (1d6): When you use the Chant of help bonus action, the creature who receives the help also gains a 1d6 bonus to the d20 roll. If that roll is an attack roll, the creature can forgo adding the bonus to it, and then if the attack hits, the creature can add the bonus to the attack's damage roll against one target.
6	Song of healing (1d8): The extra hit points from Song of rest increase to 1d8.
9	Countercharm: As an action, you can start a performance that lasts until the end of your next turn. During that time, you and any friendly creatures within 30 feet of you have advantage on saving throws against being frightened or charmed.
10	Inspiring help (2d6): The bonus from Inspiring help increases to 2d6.

Level	Lore
1	Loremaster: You learn two languages of your choice. You also become proficient in your choice of two of the following skills: Arcana, History, Nature, or Religion. Your proficiency bonus is doubled for any ability check you make that uses either of those skills.
3	Words of warning: When an ally that can hear you within 30 ft makes a STR, DEX or WIS save, you can use a reaction to grant them advantage on the roll.
7	Shared inspiration: When you use Inspiring help on an ally affected by Bonds of friendship, both allies receive the bonus die to their roll.

Level	Valor
1	Warchanter: You gain proficiency with medium armors, shields and martial weapons. While both the targets of Bonds of friendship are within 15 ft of each other, they both deal 1d4 damage when they hit with a weapon attack.
3	Battle harmony: When an ally that can hear you within 30 ft makes an attack roll, you can use a reaction to grant them advantage on the roll.
7	Stirring shout: When you use Inspiring help on an ally, they gain 5 temporary HP. When a creature gains these temporary HP, it can immediately use its reaction to move up to its speed, without provoking opportunity attacks.

 

[TheSword]

Yeah, but in D&D fandom, the term "sacred cow" which refers to Hinduism gets used ironically, with a pejorative intent. While originally humorous, it seems overall insulting. Unintentionally.

I use the term myself. But now in an era of heightened sensitivity with regard to the identities of other people, I am wondering if I should.




The six ability scores suffer from the QWERTY keyboard effect. The complexity of D&D (and RPGs generally) requires gamers to invest significant time and effort to master it. This investment itself creates a familiarity and a commitment to the QWERTY/six-ability tradition, despite it being inefficient.



I am decreasingly tolerant of the bad design of the six abilities.

Or it could just be that the six scores, do what they need to do, make sense and aren’t going to be replaced without a VERY good reason... like the QWERTY keyboard.

It has already been said that A5E will be an expanded version of 5e and backward compatible. So the 6 scores are in. Dissing them to make your own personal preference of the hobby known, probably isn’t helpful to the discussion of what will be in A5E.

 

[Helldritch]

I am comfortable, loving D&D and wanting to see D&D to continue to improve.

Where there are certain areas of the D&D gaming system that seem weaker than the rest of the system, I feel free to critique D&D lovingly.

And that is good. On the other hand, you can not ignore what the majority of the players want (DMs included). If something is not broken, then do not repair it. A lot of people think that 5ed is a bit on the easy side. We want a bit more crunch (or a lot in some cases). Not a whole new system.