What gets me playing Draw Steel and not Pathfinder 2e?

[cranberry]

I played my 2nd game of Draw Steel (as a player). The focus on the session was "team checks" where each player choses a skill and ability, justified it to the Director, and based on those two factors rolls to see if you succeed or not. You need to get a certain number of successful rolls to succeed. That took some time but wasn't too bad.

Then we had to negotiate with some "wood elves" to pass through the forest. Figuring out which skills to us was tedious, and by the third roll, no one had any skills they could justify using in the negotiation, so the Director just hand waved it.

Meh, some mechanics are better in theory than practice.

And the combat from the prior week was OK. It wasn't any better or worse than D&D or PF. My primary special ability as a warden is pushing (Pregen character). It's underwhelming and doesn't have any material impact on combat.

 

[Staffan]

Then we had to negotiate with some "wood elves" to pass through the forest. Figuring out which skills to us was tedious, and by the third roll, no one had any skills they could justify using in the negotiation, so the Director just hand waved it.

No-one had Brag, Empathize, Flirt, Intimidate, Lie, Perform, or Persuade? Or even a good Reason, Intuition, or Presence score (you don't need to have a skill to roll a test)?

And the combat from the prior week was OK. It wasn't any better or worse than D&D or PF. My primary special ability as a warden is pushing (Pregen character). It's underwhelming and doesn't have any material impact on combat.

I'm assuming you mean a Fury? Furies with 2+ Ferocity get a bonus to Knockbacks equal to their Might or Agility scores (which should be 2 points), and with higher Ferocity they get even more bonuses. And Berserkers also get Lines of Force as a triggered ability that lets them add Might again whenever anyone around them gets force moved (or 2*Might for a Ferocity point). Pushing opponents is amazing, because if you push them into a wall they take damage depending on how much distance was left – and if you push them into another opponent, both take that damage. So you got two goblins next to another and you use Knockback on one and get a tier 2 result, which would give you a knockback of 6 squares with Lines of Force – that's 6 points of damage to two foes with just a maneuver.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

I played my 2nd game of Draw Steel (as a player). The focus on the session was "team checks" where each player choses a skill and ability, justified it to the Director, and based on those two factors rolls to see if you succeed or not. You need to get a certain number of successful rolls to succeed. That took some time but wasn't too bad.

Then we had to negotiate with some "wood elves" to pass through the forest. Figuring out which skills to us was tedious, and by the third roll, no one had any skills they could justify using in the negotiation, so the Director just hand waved it.

Meh, some mechanics are better in theory than practice.

And the combat from the prior week was OK. It wasn't any better or worse than D&D or PF. My primary special ability as a warden is pushing (Pregen character). It's underwhelming and doesn't have any material impact on combat.

My group has much more gotten the feel of the combat and we vibe with it. My table’s players are really getting into the tactics of position for flanking or high ground or pushing into objects/walls/foes/vertically. It has taken a couple sessions but the group has found the grove where Draw Steel’s streamlining has resulted in faster rounds.

But we’ve gotten much more opportunity with combat, and not so much with montages and negotiations. Our one and only negation was interesting to try, but we’re all not “do the voice’ role-players or spend an hour chatting with npcs types. I think once I’ve done it a few more times it’ll become closer to second nature and I can see negotiations being the sort of framework that will make it valuable. My group was kind of half-assing the roleplay part of our first negotiation, and I frankly found the listed motivations and pitfall far from believable. But after a crazy series of great rolls by the players they hit Interest 5, got the best outcome that included a magic item offer plus a victory point, the group’s eyes went wide. Before going in they were disbelieving that doing really well in negotiations could result in anything that made their combats better, and they’ve internalized that the more victories the better they fights.

It was just clumsy and none of us are capital “R” role players. But with victories on the line, the group is eager to try it our more despite the alien experience of it all.

 

[cranberry]

No-one had Brag, Empathize, Flirt, Intimidate, Lie, Perform, or Persuade? Or even a good Reason, Intuition, or Presence score (you don't need to have a skill to roll a test)?

I'm assuming you mean a Fury? Furies with 2+ Ferocity get a bonus to Knockbacks equal to their Might or Agility scores (which should be 2 points), and with higher Ferocity they get even more bonuses. And Berserkers also get Lines of Force as a triggered ability that lets them add Might again whenever anyone around them gets force moved (or 2*Might for a Ferocity point). Pushing opponents is amazing, because if you push them into a wall they take damage depending on how much distance was left – and if you push them into another opponent, both take that damage. So you got two goblins next to another and you use Knockback on one and get a tier 2 result, which would give you a knockback of 6 squares with Lines of Force – that's 6 points of damage to two foes with just a maneuver.

I suggested using intimidate and presence (the only ones that I could justify), but the Directors said it would default to a negative outcome without a roll. Two other players had ideas, and I forget what they used, but after that, no one could figure out what to do.

There were no walls, no cliffs, and the monsters were spread apart.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

There were no walls, no cliffs, and the monsters were spread apart.

This does seem to be an underreported expectation. That the combat maps should be interesting and filled a bunch with believable utility.

Our group has had years of Gloomhaven/Frosthaven play and scenarios with few-to-none objects/traps/hazardous terrain are fine but quite a few characters in those games have push or pull that are diminished when we don’t have the opportuty because the scenario designed couldn’t be bothered.

Online maps probably will require a bit of spicing up with elevation and objects when put into Draw Steel use or else the map’s “verisimilitude” will bring the verisimilitude of non-cinematic battles.

 

[RenleyRenfield]

Forge Steel is just as good as Pathbuilder in my opinion, and both make character creation a breeze.

Between always having an effect (even if you roll a 2 on the dice, you will still have a Tier 1 effect and do something - you can't whiff and go "well, I guess I wait another round to try to do something!") and the way Victories and Recoveries make it so there is no weird waiting in between fights for a short rest, 5 minute adventuring days so the spellcaster can get their slots back, or twiddling your thumbs for 10 minute long Exploration Turns to roll Treat Wounds/Recover Focus Points.

I don't think we can put enough emphasis on what this poster said... Like real life real play folks - 5 players at the table for PF typically means 20 to 30 to wait until you get to go again... And that's a pretty swift group!

I think there is soooooo much fun and time lost in systems that a fail roll results in nothing happening

I for one am crazy excited to try draw steel!

 

[tetrasodium]

.

Then we had to negotiate with some "wood elves" to pass through the forest. Figuring out which skills to us was tedious, and by the third roll, no one had any skills they could justify using in the negotiation, so the Director just hand waved it.
.

@steffan raised a good question but I'll go one step further. Draw steel skill selection is not like 5e where you pick basically any skill you want. Instead you get specific skills and a choice from specific "skill groups.


For example the fury is kinda the closest analog to what would be a barbarian ind&d/pf. Fury starts with "Skills: Nature, plus choose any two skills from the exploration or intrigue skill groups."then ads to it from career and possibly race something like the soldier's "
Skills: One skill from each of the exploration skill group and the intrigue skill group +Languages: Two languages"

I would check ife everyone actually followed the character creation rules for skill selection first. If they did all follow them, then it's a learning experience that makes agood example of how draw steel is very much not a game where nobody in the party needs to speak to each other during character creation. I'm not where I can check the PDF text right now, but there is even a sidebar about how and why skill groups deliberately limit players from picking just the most powerful skills (I think it's about wanting alertness).

 

[cranberry]

@steffan raised a good question but I'll go one step further. Draw steel skill selection is not like 5e where you pick basically any skill you want. Instead you get specific skills and a choice from specific "skill groups.


For example the fury is kinda the closest analog to what would be a barbarian ind&d/pf. Fury starts with "Skills: Nature, plus choose any two skills from the exploration or intrigue skill groups."then ads to it from career and possibly race something like the soldier's "
Skills: One skill from each of the exploration skill group and the intrigue skill group +Languages: Two languages"

I would check ife everyone actually followed the character creation rules for skill selection first. If they did all follow them, then it's a learning experience that makes agood example of how draw steel is very much not a game where nobody in the party needs to speak to each other during character creation. I'm not where I can check the PDF text right now, but there is even a sidebar about how and why skill groups deliberately limit players from picking just the most powerful skills (I think it's about wanting alertness).

Theses were all pregen characters, so I suppose the designers could have made mistakes.

 

[zakael19]

Are you playing the playtest adventure (based on the encounters you described it sounds like it)? The Delian tomb "Start Here" packet pregens all have an excellent assortment of skills.

Also, I wonder if a GM coming from a more narratively open game or who has experience running later design 4e SCs would've done a better job creating opportunities. When I read the playtest adventure it did feel a little constrained (same way the Daggerheart playtest doesn't really show the potential of its system off that well).

However, looking at the Delian Tomb's presented Negotiations, there's no set skill list or anything, and the framework for the whole thing is actually really robust! Lots of space to use Reason/Intuition/Presence rolls to try and uncover motivations or pitfalls; plus you can just RP asking flat out what people want/need to get hints. It's actually a really cool (if pretty lengthy in the rules) framework for weighty councils/conflicts with a lot of solid guidance:

"Negotiation is not a process that changes an NPC’s character. Rather, the heroes are trying to make an NPC understand how behaving differently would be in character. You might well be able to get the hitherto loyal lieutenant of an evil boss to reconsider the error of their ways. That’s a classic dramatic trope. But even then, you’re not changing their character—you’re convincing them that their current evil ways are out of character. “Is this who you are? Is this how you want to be remembered?!”

If some players want to use the negotiation system as a means to an end by having their characters say, “Just do what we tell you, or else!”, you can remind them that that’s not how most people, including NPCs, work. Any heroes who open with that attitude are likely to lose the negotiation before it begins.

The Threat of Violence

In the real world, negotiations rarely come with a threat of immediate violence. Ambassadors don’t usually get into fistfights. But this is a heroic fantasy RPG, featuring heroes who are armed to the teeth and able to alter reality with their minds. The threat of violence is already implied. Everyone involved knows that the characters could draw steel at any moment.

The Director typically assumes that the underlying potential for events to turn violent is already factored into every negotiation. However, if the heroes decide to bring that threat to the forefront, then they’ve exited the realm of negotiation and have entered into a different type of relationship—and it’s probably time to draw steel.

Negotiation is about persuading someone to help you willingly because you’ve convinced them that meeting your objectives is a good idea. Working with you is wise or logical, or might make them look good. "

 

[Enrahim]

I played my 2nd game of Draw Steel (as a player). The focus on the session was "team checks" where each player choses a skill and ability, justified it to the Director, and based on those two factors rolls to see if you succeed or not. You need to get a certain number of successful rolls to succeed. That took some time but wasn't too bad.

Then we had to negotiate with some "wood elves" to pass through the forest. Figuring out which skills to us was tedious, and by the third roll, no one had any skills they could justify using in the negotiation, so the Director just hand waved it.

Sound like there was some confusion about montage vs negotiation. Those two are completely seperate systems. Montage is basically your chance to show of your character's strength in any way you want. And if you dont see any relevant strength, you should default to simply aid someone else showing off. (Edit: And in the case you really are dry for ideas, everyone doing "nothing" is a valid option, and will just result in a partial success or failure)

Negoiation is hardly meant to be about skill at all. It is all about bringing up the right kind of topics in the conversation, and make a roll per completed "argument". (Edit: there are some opening to use skill to inform what would be good topics to bring up, but that is fully optional) once you are out of good ideas for how to argue you can always just end the negotiation and get the result you have been offered (you should get an offer after each roll - though the offer could be "get out of my sight, and I wont make life hard for you").

Meh, some mechanics are better in theory than practice.

And the combat from the prior week was OK. It wasn't any better or worse than D&D or PF. My primary special ability as a warden is pushing (Pregen character). It's underwhelming and doesn't have any material impact on combat.

There were no walls, no cliffs, and the monsters were spread apart.

Running a first DS combat on a plain field with ranged foes spread out sound highly inadviceable to me. That is one of the absolutely worst scenarios I can imagine to showcase the system. I think you must have been severely unfortunate with your Director?