What happened between green ronin and osseum

Pielorinho said:
I'd kind of prefer folks not mention his name. If you're interested in helping to track him down, you can see finding out his name as sort of a pre-test to joining the effort :). That said, if his name is brought up, the fact that this thread has been looked at by site moderators might open the site to legal troubles (especially if, say, he's found by an overenthusiastic gamer who decides to play Dirty Harry). I don't particularly want this board to turn into D20's Most Wanted. Folks who are in the know have readily-available email addresses, and if you really want to know the name, finding it shouldn't be that difficult. Just keep that sort of thing off the board, is my thinking.

Daniel

I understand where you're coming from, but it seems like keeping this name secret just gives people sanction to ratchet up their rhetoric -- however justified the reproach. I find that people are quite a bit more reluctant to make (even joking) threats against a real name than against an anonymous cipher. Combined with the ease with which the name can be sussed out, I'm just not sure this policy really protects anyone.

But that's all I have to say on this. I am glad to see folks rallying around Green Ronin, one of the best game companies out there.
 

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Corvidae said:
That really stinks, I mean, green ronin is a wonderful publisher, and bad axe games which also was represented by osseum. That guy should be subjected to the worst that gamers can come up with, and believe me, I know, gamers are creative people. To anyone who would like to, I wonder if enworld could make some pdf's that the profits go to help green ronin. Just an idea.

I kinda wonder what would be justice to a guy who took peoples hobbies, and imaginations, and ran with their money.

Thanks for the info

John

Unfortunately, that kind of behaviour isn't so uncommon :( A lot of companies, especially small ones, display less than admirable ethics.

And when you yourself are a small company, it's really hard to get your money back, as lawsuits are prohibitively expensive.

Banshee
 

To understand how Osseum could be responsible for taking so much money from so many people, you have to realize two things.

First, some hiccups in the money supply are completely normal at the manufactuirer end. For them to get their money, the retailer has to pay the distributr who has to pay the fulfilment house (in a case like Osseum), who pays the manufacturer. So if the far end says to you "there's a bit of a snag, but I'll have it all worked out by next month, or at worst the moth after", it's not going to be the first time the manufacturer has heard this. If the fulfilment house has treated you right for three year, and you're his biggest client, there's no reason to think he's lying.

This is particularly true for someone like Pramas, who has been in this industry for a lot of boom/bust cycles. And the whole reason for going with someone like Osseum is that they'd proven to be a valuable service. Also, publishers tend not to talk to each other about problems too much, for lots of obvious reasons. Plus, it sounds like Osseum was paying something at first, which would make their story sound even more reasonable. And, of course, Osseum could tell GR "We only sold 400 books this month. Must be a slump. We can only pay you for 200 of them, because the slump is making distributors cash-poor." It wouldn't be until Osseum skipped town and people got into their warehouse Pramas would be able to look and see how many books were actually gone. An unsold book can be recovered and sold. A book that's just missing and you never knew had been sold is more lost money, especially if you're GR and you've been selling through your print runs.

Second, Osseum got all the money, but was only supposed to keep a tiny fraction. It was a business of margins. I don;t know exactly how GRs numbers worked, but in general terms if Osseum sold $6,000 of GR stuff into the distributors, Osseum was supposed to kep it's cut (say, $600), and pass the rest on. But that meant if Osseum was losing money, perhaps because it had grown too big too fast (I've had friends tell me they know of people who sent notices to Osseum mentioning they owed Osseum money, and Osseum was too overwhelmed to collect), or because of warehousing costs (Osseum's warehouse was so stuffed you had to walk atop pallets of books to get to the back), it would be easy to prop it up for months by stealing a bigger cut and claiming less was sold, or that the distributors haven't paid yet.

My bet is the owner thought he was having a "growing pain", and that if he could get extra money just for a month or two he'd make it all work out. So he stole money, and claimed everythign was still alright. But the core problem (whatever it was) didn't get fixed, so he needed more and more money to make ends meet. When he finally realized he'd stolen hundreds of thousands of dollars, and everything was going to heck and he couldn't save it, he was unwilling to face either the personal nor legal consequences and just left.

My guess, looking at the books in questions and John Nephew's articles on how much things cost to print and such, is that GR lost between $200,000 and $400,000, depending on the size of their print runs. That's not to say all that would have been profit -- not by a long shot. Most of it would have gone to paying the bills, which is exactly why GR ended up shorting its freelancers, as this thread mentions.

I know some freelancers freaked. I've spoken to a few. But it looks to me like most knew GR had been worked over by someone else, was being upfront about it, and was making payments as they were able. That's the way you handle a disaster like this, and it speaks strongly of their ethics and the quality of their products that GR is still with us today.

Now, I'm gonna go buy some M&M stuff, and more Advanced rulebooks.
 

Garnfellow said:
...keeping this name secret just gives people sanction to ratchet up their rhetoric... -- however justified the reproach. I find that people are quite a bit more reluctant to make (even joking) threats against a real name than against an anonymous cipher.


In our experience, we find both to be the case, so our answer is -- folks need to keep the hate-rhetoric off the forums.

I'd rather it be pro-Green Ronin and pro-Bad Axe rhetoric, myself. :)

Go, Chris! Go, Ben! WOO-HOO! YEAH!

*whistles, stomps feet*
 

This is to anyone from Green Ronin who cares to answer (Pramas or Evan Sass would be ideal)...

You mention a pre-purchase, limited edition M&M book for 40 bucks (SWEEEEET!!!) and say that a discussion of the content is on www.atomicthinktank.com

But I can't find it anywhere and really, really want to take part in the discussion:)
 

Teflon Billy said:
This is to anyone from Green Ronin who cares to answer (Pramas or Evan Sass would be ideal)...

You mention a pre-purchase, limited edition M&M book for 40 bucks (SWEEEEET!!!) and say that a discussion of the content is on www.atomicthinktank.com

But I can't find it anywhere and really, really want to take part in the discussion:)

We haven't started it yet. We're basically interested to hear from folks who pre-order the book what they'd most like to see. If you just watch the general forum on the Atomic Think Tank, there will be no missing it.
 

Again my main point here is how do we as gamers, make sure that the companies we like get the money we are paying for their product. I mean, I want to see justice as much as the next guy, however, I want to make sure green ronin bounces back to full swing as soon as possible more.

So how can we help green ronin get on their feet again. Thanks joe for your ideas, but does anyone else have ideas on how gamers can help their game companies. How can gamers support their game companies. I mean, from what it seems almost half a million dollars was lost. No gamer can help that. But how besides the normal promotion can we aid them?


any ideas are welcome

John
 

Corvidae said:
In my opinion, Green ronin is one of the three best d20 publishers... How can we promote those companies we enjoy?

Joe gave some good answers to this question. I'll just add that if you folks want to see us continue doing d20 stuff, try supporting our new Bleeding Edge line of adventures. The first one, Mansion of Shadows, is hitting stores next week and is also available as a PDF. The second one, Beyond the Towers, is in layout. We already have 10 solid manuscripts for the line, the question is can we sell enough to justify publishing them.

One of the two exclusvie products in the Freelancer Fundraiser is also a Bleeding Edge adventure. So far the Mutants & Masterminds book is outselling it by a large margin, despite being twice the cost.

If you show us that you want more d20, we'd be happy to do it. Hell, Rob Schwalb would probably come to your house and kiss you.*

Chris Pramas
Green Ronin Publishing

*Offer not valid in this reality.
 


JoeGKushner said:
Buy their stuff.

Get your friends to buy their stuff.

Use it in your game.

Post details about how it's actual use was in your game.

Write reviews of the material.


1. Did that. They didn't see a penny as it turns out.

2. They did. GR, again, they didn't see a penny.

3. My Party's headed towards Freeport as I type this.

4.&5. Need to do more of.


As to the issues.

1. Is there a criminal investigation going on? Did (and how severe) are any crime(s) allegedly commited?

2. Does Osseum have any assets (say a building) that are going to go into bankruptcy/sold to pay outstanding debts. I know this will be pennies on the dollar (at most), but that's how things go.

3. I'm just guessing the IRS might have some questions for this guy as well.

4. If the cops order an arrest warrent, should his name be posted? I mean at that point, we are talking about a wanted criminal. Once indictments go down I think we should put his name up somewhere (perhaps the Publisher's Forum?). I mean if the police were looking for a guy that broke into the GR studios and grabbed everything not nailed down, you'd want to help track the guilty party down, right? Since the Post Office has Murderers, Child Molesters, and worse covering there walls, I don't think they'll be able to fit a embezzller in.

5. As for how to hide, it's pretty easy. If he has got family prepared to shelter him, it becomes really easy. You can obtain a fake S.S. card for around $100 bucks if you know where to go. It's called Identity Theft & its how a lot of illegal aliens and others manage to get jobs, credit cards, car loans, etc. Most low-end manual jobs don't examine backgrouds to closely (a job in his field, however). If he had some time to plan how to run away, he's going to be hard to find. Usually, start with relatives. If they make contact, that's usually who with.
 

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