What Happens When You Go Lich?

[Jeremy]

And as far as the advantages vs disadvantages of a Lich, you forgot a few obvious ones. Being immune to most necromantic effects is as bad as it is good, since many are beneficial, and also healing spells now harm the user. And being a rotting husk has got to negatively impact the character in social situations.

Sorry, I missed you comment in the flurry and the board difficulties yesterday.

I would agree with your first point except that the character is still capable of healing himself with negative energy instead of positive. Being that wizards have more access to negative energy (normally damaging spells) then positive energy (normally curative spells), I'd say this is a further advantage I overlooked. Not a disadvantage at all.

As to the second point, role playing disadvantages should NEVER be used to counteract game mechanic advantages. They can be avoided, overlooked, or underused to easily. A simple application of a first level Change Self is all he needs to looks like his old self. Technically not being affected by age and living forever (even though normally that takes a high level druid or monk) is an advantage too, but I didn't list that as it is more a role playing advantage than a game mechanic, hence I left out reaction adjustments as well.

 

[Alejandro]

I'm going to revisit the original question: does the PC have an ECL.

To my knowledge, by the core books, the answer is no.

Should the PC have an ECL? If he was given the phylactery free of charge at 1st level, sure.

Does being a lich have benefits? Yes.

Does being a lich have drawbacks? Yes.

When weighed against the drawbacks, are the benefits worth 120,000 gp and 5,000 xp? I think only the DM can answer this.

 

[Jeremy]

By the core books no creature has ECL. You could wish to be dragon and you'd still be the same level. ECL was introduced later.

If you want to know by about how much effectively being a lich slide you up the power scale that levels measure, it's around 5 or so give or take. Is it worth the money? Most likely for that kind of increase. I'd certainly pay 5000 xp and 120000 gp for 5 levels in barbarian or that laundry list of immunities.

Your statements of benefits and drawbacks seems to imply that added to the monetary and xp cost the drawbacks are equal to (or near enough that it requires a DM call) the benefits.

I heartily disagree. Just counting the number of benefits vs. drawbacks I'd disagree. Nevermind the sweeping power of each benefit.

ECL is designed to measure how certain special abilities affect a campaign. How many times do they come up? How many obstacles do they circumvent? How many attacks do they negate? How many threats do they affect? It is there so that the level, XP, and CR systems are more flexible and can accomodate creatures other than humans, dwarves, and elves. So that you can play (or become) an ogre or a pixie or some such if you so wish.

The most basic question of "does a lich have ECL?" is easiest answered by "is a lich more powerful than a human as a base race?" Is yes, then yes. If no, then no. Regardless of what you paid to get the abilities, if they leave the range of a normal creatures abilities (which has been demonstrated) or if they leave the range of a normal creature's item's abilities (which has also been demonstrated) then they have breached into a new level. Either physically, or effectively.

How to adjucate this new level is up to the DM, though as Artoomis has already done the legwork on it and sketched it out, I again, highly recommend his solution.

 

[Artoomis]

Oh...

I forgot to add that at level 5, the Immortal loses his skin and becomes skeletal.

Not exactly a minor point. Whoops.

I think that levels 1-4 add powers that may seem just a tiny bit on the wqeak side (perhaps - perhaps not), but level 5 gives rather generous abilities for a level, so it all works out.

Of course, after level 5 the Immortal could advance any class as usual. At that point, I'd make them use the regular class advancing tables for skills, feats, HD, etc.

If you don't, then they will get too much at each level (d12 no matter what class is not fair to everyone else, even when you take into account the loss of a possible consitution bonus that may or may not have existed).

Also, use Charisma as the Fort/Con stat when it is needed - I don't remember when this comes upo, but it happens.

 

[mikebr99]

Lich template as a PrC

I am just not sure that making a player sit out of the campaign for 120 days (and spend the money and exp.) AND then make him wade through 5 or 6 levels of a PrC before he realizes the full capabilities of the template is the way to go.

I am more of the opinion that once he has gone through the standard process to becone a lich... that he now has all of the powers and limitations. And that he is just so confident of his abilities that he is gaining little if any real experience after that. I.e. a 15th level Lich Wizard needs now needs 190,000 to reach 16th (for example).

 

[Artoomis]

Re: Lich template as a PrC

I am just not sure that making a player sit out of the campaign for 120 days (and spend the money and exp.) AND then make him wade through 5 or 6 levels of a PrC before hi realizes the full capabilities of the template is the way to go.

I am more of the opinion that once he has gone through the standard process to becone a lich... that he now has all of the powers and limitations. And that he is just so confident of his abilities that he is gaining little if any real experience after that. I.e. a 15th level Lich Wizard needs now needs 190,000 to reach 16th (for example).

So leave out the 120 days - allow it to be an on-going project for 5 levels - just require that 120 days is spent over the entire period of the five levels.

This method allows that character to gain power at about the same rate as everyone else, which is the whole idea, and the reason this whole thread exists, right? You could skip the Exp. Pt. creation cost, too, it would be easy to justify as it is part of the class.

edit: The problem with fixing typos after being quoted is that the typo is preserved for posterity. Rats...

 

[mikebr99]

Re: Re: Lich template as a PrC

So leave out the 120 days - allow it to be an on-going project for 5 levels - just require that 120 days is spent over the entire period of the five levels.

This method allows that character to gain power at about the same rate as everyone else, which is the whole idea, and the reason this whole thread exists, right?. You could skip the Exp Pt creation cost, too, it would be easy to justify as it is part of the class.

True... Artoomis, thanks. I'll ponder that one for a while...

 

[Valicor]

Hey Valicor, as you've already said yourself, you're not the DM but time itself may be the limiting factor.

If the other PCs are worried about upsetting the balance, you've a number of suggestions on this thread. If the DM is looking for options, point him to this thread.

But you're protesting an awful lot when this decision only affects you indirectly. I hope you'll voice your reservations to your DM discretely, rather than argue with him in-game about the actions taken by another player. T'would be rude, IMO.

Rudeness was never an issue, I haven't even decided if I am, going to show the DM this thread. I was only goign to point my problems with it, if he gained benfits jsut like that (Because I feel there should atleast be some form of trade off)If DM say's other wise, then it ends disscussion there. Also I think alot of people are viewing the character as level 12, I it was stated earlier that he would become a level 12 equivelent, before for wizard class after becoming a lich, he currently is level 14.

I am also not against him becoming a lich, I just am hoping it will be fair.

 

[Valicor]

Re: Re: Lich template as a PrC

So leave out the 120 days - allow it to be an on-going project for 5 levels - just require that 120 days is spent over the entire period of the five levels.

This method allows that character to gain power at about the same rate as everyone else, which is the whole idea, and the reason this whole thread exists, right? You could skip the Exp. Pt. creation cost, too, it would be easy to justify as it is part of the class.

edit: The problem with fixing typos after being quoted is that the typo is preserved for posterity. Rats...

That is a good point.

 

[Bastoche]

Lich are immune to necromantic spells. Not healing spells. Healing is a domain and necromancy is another.

Reverse cures heals a lich (cause wounds, harm, etc). As an evil being it's an advantage because fellow evil cleric can cure them spontaneously.