OSR What Has Caused the OSR Revival?

[Desdichado]

Well, then you're probably not affected by nostalgia to terribly. But if you don't often play D&D, but instead modern venue games, then that probably sets you apart from most of the folks here.

I still maintain that interest in the fantasy genre in general is largely driven by nostalgia.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Well, then you're probably not affected by nostalgia to terribly. But if you don't often play D&D, but instead modern venue games, then that probably sets you apart from most of the folks here.

i play a broad range that includes D&D (3E, Ad&d and OSR games) , my own fantasy rpg, but also mafia. Savage worlds spy, Cthulu and other settings. We get plenty of regular fantasy gaming as well as modern , near future, and historical.

I still maintain that interest in the fantasy genre in general is largely driven by nostalgia.

It may be for some but I am not convinced it is for the majority. I tend to take a non-romantic view of history (for example my roman campaign used a sepsis optional rule to emphasis the danger posed by infection from wounds). When I think of stuff like Conan for example, that to me is more wish fulfillment or escapism than nostalgia ( even if it is built on a fictional quasi-historical ancient world----the function there seemed more to free up Howard's imagination than as a vehicle for tomanticizing ancient history. My point is people go to these things for different reason. Some may go for nostalgia, but I don't think you can assert all or most do because of dragons and Walt Whitman .


but even if accept what you as true, it means all fantasy rpgs are nostalgia rooted, not the OSR Specifically (or any more than others).

 

[Desdichado]

I'm completely convinced that it's the majority, and not just the majority of gamers, but the "big" majority of fantasy entertainment overall. It was a driving force behind the impetus of writers like Howard, Morris and Tolkien. It's a huge factor in most fantasy novels today. It was talked about incessantly in the documentaries to the Lord of the Rings movies. Guys like China Mieville and the New Weird were specifically reacting against the nostalgia of the fantasy genre, which he has described as ubiquitous.

Sure, I can't assign motives for any individuals without risk of being blatantly wrong, unless I know the individual in question reasonably well. But I'm pretty confident that the concept of nostalgia is hand in hand with fandom of fantasy in general and has been from before even the roots of the genre were laid.

And yes, all fantasy games have an undercurrent of nostalgia for the Golden Age of swashbuckling adventure, even as consumers of them know that they're being sold a romanticized bill of goods. I personally believe, also, that nostalgia plays a very significant role in the OSR as well. James Maliszewski's blog was dripping with it, the way he made it almost a ritual sacrament to try and recreate a Gygaxian mileu, and sample anything and everything that he felt might have been an input of any kind into early D&Diana. Matt Finch's Old School Primer does the same.

Does this mean that every single OSR gamer is so because of nostalgia? No, of course not. Does it mean that nostalgia is a strong force in the very existence, not to mention the propagation of the OSR? You certainly haven't convinced me that it isn't. I can rather easily line up hundreds of counter examples of blogs, posts, and the two mentioned already that freely reference nostalgic sentiment on a regular basis.

Also, your hair-splitting of romanticized wish-fulfillment or escapism as not nostalgia is hair-splitting that the definition and general usage of the word doesn't support.

 

[S'mon]

I'm completely convinced that it's the majority, and not just the majority of gamers, but the "big" majority of fantasy entertainment overall. It was a driving force behind the impetus of writers like Howard, Morris and Tolkien. It's a huge factor in most fantasy novels today. It was talked about incessantly in the documentaries to the Lord of the Rings movies. Guys like China Mieville and the New Weird were specifically reacting against the nostalgia of the fantasy genre, which he has described as ubiquitous.

Nostalgia is just one element of modern fantasy. Tolkien was nostalgic. The 1930s pulp Swords &
Sorcery authors weren't nostalgic at all. Moorcock and Mieville aren't nostalgic. Gene Wolfe's not
nostalgic.
Away from literature, nostalgia is not a big part of D&D, no. D&D originally drew more from
modernist fantasy, although it grew over time and the Forgotten Realms and 2nd edition AD&D do have nostalgic elements. 4e has more of a nostalgic feel than 3e IMO, but it's not a huge thing,
just the Fallen Nerath trope which is very Tolkienesque.
Obviously nostalgia is a big part of Lord of the Rings based games, also I think Pendragon, though Stafford might disagree, and other real-myth games. It was a big part of Maliszewski's POV, but I don't see much nostalgia in other OSR luminaries - Playing D&D With Porn Stars blog, or Lamentations of the Flame Princess game.

 

[S'mon]

Also, your hair-splitting of romanticized wish-fulfillment or escapism as not nostalgia is hair-splitting that the definition and general usage of the word doesn't support.

Read it again - he was specifically referring to Conanesque S&S as escapism, which it is. And it'snot nostalgic at all - when REH wrote Conan he wasn't grieving for a lost golden age when Men Were Men, probably because he was still living in that era and among those Men.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Does this mean that every single OSR gamer is so because of nostalgia? No, of course not. Does it mean that nostalgia is a strong force in the very existence, not to mention the propagation of the OSR? You certainly haven't convinced me that it isn't. I can rather easily line up hundreds of counter examples of blogs, posts, and the two mentioned already that freely reference nostalgic sentiment on a regular basis.

support.

I don't think we need to prove that nostalgia is not a major factor, you need to prove that it is. And i haven't been persuaded by your argument. One it relies on swinging between two different definitions of nostalgia (1- the common use here of reminding people of their childhood, which coincides with early D&D, and 2-a much much broader notion of romantic and sentimental attitudes toward history being embedded in fantasy as a genre). Two, i think there is very little evidence that most people involved in OSR are motivated by #1. I am just not convinced by your arguments.

 

[Bedrockgames]

I would also add, i think in this instance nostalgia is something that is palpable, not somethig you can vaguely point to as being secretly at work. Again, if you want to employ an expansive definition of it, that heralds back to the romantics and our attitudes toward history that is okay, but it isn't what pep mean when they say the osr is based on nostalgia (if anything the osr attempts to take a non-romantic view of the history it incorporates). People mean that those going back to OD&D are doing so because it reminds them of their childhood. You are bringing in other useages of the word nostalgia to distort the argument.

i know when i am interested in something for nostalgic reasons. For example, when i watched the transformers movie, that was oure nostalgia on my part (right down to the inner giddiness i felt when i hear the original voice actor doing optimus prime). That isn't what I experience when i play old school games. I play them simply because i like the mechanics and they don't have a lot of the accumulated weight of the more modern style games out there (though i love plenty of modern design games)

 

[Desdichado]

Sword & sorcery absolutely was nostalgic. On what basis are you excluding that?

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Nevermind.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Sword & sorcery absolutely was nostalgic. On what basis are you excluding that?

I think this is a separate issue than what is being discussed. It is certainly one I think we disagree on, and might be nice to talk about in a different thread, but it isn't really what I am concerned about here (i may quibble over whether something like Conan is nostalgic, but i don't feel all that strongly about it the way i do when people say OSR is mere nostalgia). My concern is strictly about people saying those who play OSR games do so to return to their childhood (which is what is meant by nostalgia in that case). This has little to do with whether or not the sword and sorcery genre is rooted in nostalgia from a literary criticism point of view (which seems to be more about nostalgia as sentimentality and romanticization of historical periods (not of a return to your childhood experience).