What I don't get RE: FR and High Level NPC's

[Roman]

I also dislike the fact that High-level NPCs will be nuked in FR. I like to evoke a sense that there is a living world around the PCs and they are not the only ones on the stage, though our focus concentrates on them.

 

[TessarrianDM]

Print more novels that don't impact on the Realms so much.

The novels seem to have become more of a way to introduce and sell new game mechanics than to provide a good, entertaining story (although some of them still do). It began with the changeover to 3rd Edition (the Waterdeep/Tantras/Shadowdale books) and has continued to this day (the Lady Penitent series, etc.). As these new rules have an impact on how the game is played, and introduce concepts (at least in some cases) that did not previously exist in the Forgotten Realms, they can't help but have a large impact.

While I do not run a Forgotten Realms campaign, I have dropped Waterdeep and Undermountain into my homebrew (complete with their inherent NPC's). While the party works for the Lords of Waterdeep, there has only been one instance that a major NPC has come to the rescue. I agree with the OP that how much of an impact any NPC has is the sole determination of the DM, regardless of "canon".

 

[Steely Dan]

It began with the changeover to 3rd Edition (the Waterdeep/Tantras/Shadowdale books)

The Time of Troubles was the crossover from 1st Ed to 2nd Ed.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

I agree entirely. DM's are even given advice not to use the NPC's like that in the FRCS, in both the Concerns of the Mighty and Make PC's the Stars sections. It's poor DMing, pure and simple, and could occur in Eberron, Dragonlance, Greyhawk or any custom world. Yet somehow the Realms got this entirely false perception.

I know, I've read that sidebar. It, however, reads to me as hollow words for anyone who knows anything about the setting. It essentially says "There are a bunch of people who WOULD come and save everyone all the time, but please don't do this because your players will hate it. It may make sense that they would, but DON'T do it. Here's a list of lame reasons you can use to keep your players happy if they have the opposite reaction and wonder why they DIDN'T show up. Oh, and here are all of the stats for them and 20 novels about them saving the world."

And no, it wouldn't happen in any of those other worlds. In Eberron there is almost no one on the entire planet higher than level 7. The couple people who ARE have really good reasons not to be helping anyone (one of them is a tree and can't move from where its rooted, the other loses all their powers if they leave their temple, and the rest are extremely neutral and have no interest in helping anyone). In Greyhawk it's a little bit harder, but most of the people in the world are low level as well. The couple high level people are either non-magic using people who also rule countries or are the Circle who are all extremely neutral and don't like to help people. Dragonlance I'm less familiar with but I know that there are very few high level heroes as well.

I would say that just lately, with the mass of RSE's coming in, we have gotten quite a few second string high level characters, which really isn't needed. Nor are most of them as well developed as the Chosen.

This is true, in addition to the fact that all the gods are basically high level characters in the Realms as well as there is lots of evidence of them acting directly or semi directly in order to get things done.

Between the Seven Sisters, all of their friends, Drizzt and his friends, the good drow faction,

Gross over-exaggeration.

It IS an over-exaggeration, but not horribly so. There are a good 15 at least of just powerful wizards. If we add in some of the powerful harpers, clerics, and fighter types in the novels it has to bring it to at least 25.

 

[ferratus]

I got finished a Forgotten Realms campaign a little while ago. In my 15th level adventure, I was featuring the sack of Saerloon in Sembia by the Cult of the Dragon leader Salvarad who the PC's had exposed and ruined his operations there. He then decided to ressurect Moander and use the citizens of Saerloon as a blood sacrifice to fuel the god's rebirth, slipping something into the ritual to chain that god to his diety in service. Now, the unfortunate thing about this scenerio, is how do you do a sack of Sembia with an 18th level Cleric of Cyric with high and epic level archmages and mage/priests in the city?

So I constructed the scenerio where Salvarad summoned Pit Fiends (with multiple gate spells) and are riding wyrm dracoliches above the city, a threat too powerful for the PC's to confront. Then I had the archmages exhausted and beseiged in the temple of Mystra, now unable to get rest to replenish their spells until the beseigers were dealt with. So once the PC's destroyed the half-dragon forces besieging the Temple, the priests and mages were able to rest and get their spells back.

Then we had a nice cinematic scene of meteor swarms filling the air while my PC's were air dropped onto Moander's body, to enter the complex beneath that hill of rotting organic waste. The archmages dealt with the Pitfiends mounted on Dracoliches, while the PC's dealt with Salvarad.

Now this scenerio is forced and you can probably pick out several plot holes. But if I was to have the PC's be the heroes of Saerloon, I had to neutralize the archmages. I could have just killed them, but that would have probably made the PC's decide that a threat that could kill archmages was probably a threat they couldn't handle.

So I am in the halfway point in this argument. I don't agree with killing off all the famous high level NPC's, but why in bloody hell are there high and epic level archmages in Saerloon? Can you name them without opening your FRCS?

High level characters work well to make safe havens in the campaign world. Shadowdale's high level characters are not a problem because Shadowdale is just a small farming community that should have been under Zhentish Hegemony long ago if Elminster the Sage didn't live there and the Knights of Myth Drannor didn't get drunk there. However, as long as that is the case, you can't set mid to high level adventures in Shadowdale. The lower level heroes in Metropolis can only tell little stories. When the big trouble hits, the first question that will be asked is "Where's Superman?".

There should also be enough room in which the PC's can exceed the good aligned NPC's. For example, this is what the Magister role should be for, the highest level defender of the weave, who belongs to the PC wizard between levels 26 (Elminster's ideal level) and 30. The Magister tends to die quickly, because he is overwhelmed by the numerous threats facing the world. Throw in some perks to the position, and the PC wizards have something to shoot for.

 

[Cyronax]

The problem with the Realms, IMO, is not the NPCs per se ... it's the novels impacting on the campaign setting. Novels sell with familiar, powerful characters and Realms-Shattering Events. By themselves this is not bad, but when the novels also become canon to the campaign setting you end up with a lot of machinations in the campaign setting. Plus the large number of novel fans represent a portion of the fanbase that expects to see novel-like continuity within the campaign. I think that portion is much smaller than projected, but it is there.

The gaming Realms would be better off if not impacted by the novel Realms, but since that is the relationship FR has grown into I don't see it changing.

My problem was that I specifically told my gaming group that I was basing an FR campaign on my own assumptions and only was using the FRCS and have scaled back the timeline to not include certain events (like Cyric's purging of Banepriests in Zhentil Keep). I also told them that they shouldn't expect any continuity from the novels to enter my world.

The players themselves would get angry at me and wonder why no high-level NPCs were around during certain adventures. Its a convoluted story, but basically DMing FR is fine if you have players that can check their Realmslore at the door.

C.I.D.

 

[Brian Compton]

Even though this is an argument that no one's going to win, despite the fact that one could argue the same fact about Mordenkainen et al. in Greyhawk or certain novel-invented heroes in Dragonlance, here's two more cents:

1) Big time NPC's can always be elsewhere when the dung hits the ground. Considering all the extra-planar threats to the Realms (and extraterrestrial if you throw in Spelljamming), there are many enemies beyond Faerun that only high-level characters are aware off and can deal with. Likewise, many of these characters travel widely, both in-world and off, for business, research, pleasure, etc. Assuming they don't carry magic communicators, they aren't always aware of threats to their homes, or may be too far away to make a difference. If they all stayed home because something might happen, they wouldn't be the rich and successful characters that they are.

2) Many of the major NPC's do more than just fight battles. Many are involved in business, governance, family, or research of a sort. Consequently, they aren't going to deal with every little problem that crops up, and for every dragon attack, there are 10 or 12 issues of mundane theft, kidnapping, murder, and treasure hunting that PC's are more than willing to take up. This would be very appropriate in an urban setting. As for wilderness settings, PC's will often be the only ones around- no big time NPC's to bump into.

3) So what if big time NPC's are involved? In most great calamities, there are roles for everyone. The PC's may not be the biggest characters around, but that doesn't mean they don't have a part to play. Or maybe they take on the role of the unsung heroes who work for the common folk rather than the moneyed powers protected by magic and high-level NPC's. Or maybe they're tired of being unsung- rather than take this as a player feeling, use it as a character feeling and go from there. Feelings of inferiority often lead parties to do truly brave -or stupid- things, and the ones who succeed become great (the one's who don't become fodder for Elminster quotes). Or finally, try this- the NPC's show up, but the PC's get there first and deal with the problem (dumb luck, right place/right time: the ways are various and sundry). It can happen, and it makes the PC's shine in front of both the commoners and the big wigs, the latter of whom have long memories and deep pockets.

I have played in many fun FR games that don't involve biggie NPC's. When used, they were used sparingly and in character, usually as an impetus for adventure rather than a deus aut dea ex machina. Other's mileage may vary, but better to ask why and fix those issues rather than wipe the world clean.

 

[Nebulous]

but basically DMing FR is fine if you have players that can check their Realmslore at the door.

C.I.D.

FR is great if you can ignore the novels and canon and focus on just the parts you want to use. That's what i used to do when i ran the Realms, and i even had the players rescue Drizzt once from a black dragon. They met Elminster briefly, and the Simbul, but the players didn't read much of the novels, or care if our campaign strayed from canon. But they loved meeting those NPC's.

 

[Cyronax]

FR is great if you can ignore the novels and canon and focus on just the parts you want to use. That's what i used to do when i ran the Realms, and i even had the players rescue Drizzt once from a black dragon. They met Elminster briefly, and the Simbul, but the players didn't read much of the novels, or care if our campaign strayed from canon. But they loved meeting those NPC's.

Yeah meeting the NPCs is cool! I de-levelled and altered the background of several characters in Silverymoon, which completely alienated some of my one-time players.

Am I a bad DM because I said "Drizzt is the most powerful warrior in the kingdom, but he's visiting friends in the South?" To wit, a player indicated that Drizzt would never leave the North if he had even an inkling that there would be a menace to Silverymoon.

This problem can happen in any well-published setting, but it just seems to happen way to much to different DMs in FR games.

 

[Cadfan]

I have a couple friends who are Forgotten Realms fans. Big time. If they were in a Forgotten Realms game and the DM didn't bother to figure out an explanation for why Elminster/whoever wasn't available to help stop the world destroying cataclysm they were facing, they would be very upset. Those characters are part of the setting to them. They would not approve of their absence. It would be a continuity gap to them, like putting Waterdeep on a mountain range instead of a coast, or featuring drow but forgetting to include Lolth.