D&D General What if we gave dragonborn four arms?

[Tonguez]

I think what we think of today as dragons in the Hollywood sense is modern and heavily influenced by dinosaur sCiEnCe!

They grew a lot. They seem to be something more lion sized, where it was reasonable St. George could slay one as in all the sculptures.

The Mušḫuššu of Mesopatamia is considered one of the earliest 'dragon-like' creatures, its name means Red Snake and its associated with the constellation Hydra.
So a scaly animal with hind legs resembling the talons of an eagle, fore limbs like a lion, a long neck and tail, two horns on its head, a snake-like tongue, and a crest would suggest that the Dinosaur association is an ancient one.

The Greeks were the ones that gave Flying Serpents Wings

Two legged Wyvern are an English heraldic innovation

and Beowulf seems to be one of the earliest depictions of breathing fire - its specifically called a Fyrdraca

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I really didnt see the point of Dragonborn because Half-dragons and Draconians already existed. But its no biggie.

With 2024 making lineage mainly cosmetic, none of them need to core really. It would be good if the PHB could make that explicit and let DMs and groups choose their own 'setting species'

Speaking as a dragonborn fan, there are three advantages dragonborn have over both half-dragons and draconians.

• They are draconic without being literally made by/of dragons. Half-dragons literally have a dragon parent, with all the stuff that entails. Draconians are created from corrupted dragon eggs. (This is why there are naturally-evil-leaning metallic draconians, but one rarely hears of naturally-good-leaning chromatic draconians--good dragons wouldn't corrupt another dragon's eggs like that, and the only "noble" draconians ever created came from an evil wizard misunderstanding the corruption ritual and applying it tothe orphaned eggs of slain chromatic dragons fighting for Takhisis.)
• They are much more comparable to humans, having similar interests, lifespan, taste, etc. Half-dragons will live for centuries and grow much larger than a human in most cases. Draconians never have a childhood we would understand, being produced at something approximating adolescence (if I'm understanding the lore correctly).
• Dragonborn, as presented in 4e, could actually have their own cultural identity, history, traditions, etc. They could stand on their own as a people, rather than as a byproduct or a construction. Draconians and half-dragons do not have their own culture, do not have any "history" to speak of, and have no traditions other than what their parents (for the latter) or cruel captors (for the former) trained them with.

In other words, dragonborn are actual dragon people, as in a culture and heritage, not just a draconic physiology, as in a body that is loosely human-shaped but scale-clothed.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Settings used to be more fluid, I've noticed. Back in the TSR days, if a new supplement or Dragon magazine article came out and said "hey, here's this new class or race" and provided lore for what campaign settings it could fit in, an individual DM might not allow it, but I don't recall anyone saying "x doesn't belong in y setting". Maybe this was just because the internet wasn't quite a thing yet, maybe it was because with Spelljammer and Planescape, TSR's worlds were more cosmopolitan, with it not being a big deal if a Tinker Gnome from Krynn hitched a ride on a spelljammer and landed in Waterdeep or a Bariaur stepped into the wrong portal and found himself in the Free City of Greyhawk.

By the time WotC took over stewardship of the IP, the existence of Aasimar and Tieflings wasn't contested, and we got a ton of new things too, like Genasi, and several books devoted to dragonkind which gave us "draconic" PC options, (like say, Silverbrow Humans).

But during the 4e era, I started to see a growing rise in people upset about not only Dragonborn and Tieflings in the PHB*, but the idea that (gasp) someone might dare play a Warforged in Tethyr, as if the idea of a sentient golem person in the Forgotten Realms (the setting where new things pop up all the time, from Saurials to entire friggin' continents- lookin' at you Maztica and Zakhara). In fact, it doesn't take a lot of explanation as to why such a character could exist. If someone didn't want all the Warforged and Eberron lore cropping up in their campaign, you could easily provide new lore, or use the racial package to represent some other constructed creature (like a Golmoid, from Dragon #317).

*as if Gnomes didn't themselves appear as a PC option for the first time in the 1978 PHB.

Don't get me wrong, if a DM doesn't want someone to play a Mul in the Forgotten Realms (half-dwarves already existing in said setting) or a Tortle on Krynn (despite the setting already having some crazy races, likely because of the Graygem, like Walrus-men), that's their prerogative, of course. A lot of DM's don't like their PC's being a menagerie of oddballs (because of course, there was never anything unprecedented about a Dwarf, an Elf, a Human, and four Halflings going on a quest together), and that's fine- but the irritation some people have with other options existing, even being in the sacred PHB, with the game developers saying "hey, there's a place for these guys in your favorite settings" as if there's never been a precedent for such things throughout the game's history, always struck me as a bit strange.

Especially since I've never heard the same complaints about, say, new monsters being added to the game, often with very little real lore at all beyond "so here's this crazy monster". Is there a fundamental difference from adding Mudmen to your campaign because they appear in Beyond the Crystal Cave and adding Valley Elves to your campaign because they appear in Vale of the Mage, despite not having been even mentioned anywhere previously?

Extremely well-said.

For me?

It's because people identify the experience they had when they were new D&D players as "the" D&D experience. Anything which pulls in a different--even if parallel--direction is thus "Not D&D". To pollute D&D with what is "Not D&D" (even though, as you rightly point out, D&D has been getting not-D&D things added to it since before there was "D&D"!) is thus an affront, not just to the game, but to their identity. It's interpreted as saying that their fun was somehow bad fun. And thus, since they conceive of it (probably not cognitively, not in words) as being the aggressor asserting that their fun is badwrongfun, well, then obviously it must be badwrongfun and thus cast out for being, well, bad and wrong.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

European heraldry is a very poor source of Dragon canon, in that you get four, two and no legged dragons, some dragons the size of a horse, some with wings, some without and any number of heads

In fairness, that extends all the way back into Greek myth. Sometimes "drakones" were depicted as legless, sometimes not. Some could fly, some could not. Most did not breathe fire, but instead breathed poison. And some of them were people! Hercules was persuaded to produce offspring with one drakaina, a specifically female dragon (and thus implicitly human-shaped), and their children were allegedly the mythic ancestors of the Scythians.

 

[LuisCarlos17f]

Would be a dragonborn with four arms a "windfang"? (character from Conan cartoon show)

The dragonkin were canon in 2nd Ed.

D&D 5e drinks from lots of different sources. Maybe 2nd ed had got its own style but 5e was designed so that you would be the one to decide what style your game would have. D&D has got its own mythology and this has evolutionated. If you play "God of War" you don't worry about it was faithful to the original mythologies.

 

[Corinnguard]

In other words, dragonborn are actual dragon people, as in a culture and heritage, not just a draconic physiology, as in a body that is loosely human-shaped but scale-clothed.

In Level Up, Species is broken up into Heritage (who your parents were) and Culture (the society you grew up in).

Dragonborn Heritage

Dragonborn | Level Up

a5e.tools

The dragonborn were created by ancient dragons as servants, soldiers, and perhaps even as cherished children. Dragonborn are humanoid creatures instilled with the power and adorned with the scales of their draconic progenitors. Countless ancient wyrms have sired dragonborn clans, and no two are alike. The dragonborn banner flies over the ferocity of the chromatic dragonborn, the noble cunning of the metallic dragonborn, the mystery of the gem dragonborn, and even the ancient wisdom of the essence dragonborn.

Scales, tails, horns, fangs, claws, wings, and any feature found within dragonkind may emerge randomly for a generation, only to fall back into remission for the next. Despite this, some draconic features remain constant. Whether it be the color of the scales or the shape of the horns, some trace of a dragonborn’s original draconic ancestry always shows through.

Dragonborn Culture
There are many circumstances in which a great wyrm might choose to sire a clutch of dragonborn, and the resulting dragonborn clans are as varied as their progenitors. Ultimately though, the life and society of each dragonborn clan is inexorably linked to the dragon that created it.

Chromatic dragons usually see dragonborn as soldiers, cannon fodder to be created and spent for power and territory. Such militarized dragonborn clans tend to see their progenitor as a mighty general and inspiring leader who will guide them to glorious victory, often against dragonborn created by rival dragons. Such dragonborn clans are usually brutal, fearless, and blindly obedient to their progenitor.

Essence dragons fly wingless over distant shores, their serpentine pennant-like bodies snapping back and forth magically as they soar. Their spirits are intertwined with the magic of the land and are usually tied to a specific sea, river, or mountain, or to a separate plane entirely. Essence dragons see their dragonborn as trusted guardians and custodians, charging them with the safety and protection of the place from which they draw their power. Such dragonborn clans are often highly attuned to nature, and guard their progenitor’s home at all costs.

Gem dragons are rarely seen by surface dwellers and the same is true about their dragonborn. These wyrms live deep within the earth, sometimes for isolation and escape but often pursuing their own esoteric games and schemes millennia in the making. They see their dragonborn as agents, spies, and confidants. Their dragonborn are afforded an unusual level of respect, as they’re often the only creatures a gem dragon trusts enough to include wholly into its schemes. Such dragonborn clans are tight-knit but widely dispersed, often spending years in isolation only to reconvene when the time is right.

Metallic dragons tend to see their dragonborn as children, regardless of their age. To the outside observer, they often seem like the dragon’s servants, and functionally they often are, but the relationship is more parental than feudal—for some, a more intolerable condition since their unquestioning service is rewarded with condescension and infantilization. Despite all this, such dragonborn clans are typically academic, studious, and often a voice of calm and reason when conflicts arise.

Dragonbound | Level Up

a5e.tools

The closest example of a dragonbound culture in D&D would the Dragonborn of Argonessen in the Eberron setting.

Dragoncult | Level Up

a5e.tools

The Cult of the Dragon in the Forgotten Realms setting is a possible example of the dragoncult culture.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

In Level Up, Species is broken up into Heritage (who your parents were) and Culture (the society you grew up in).

Dragonborn Heritage

Dragonborn | Level Up

a5e.tools

The dragonborn were created by ancient dragons as servants, soldiers, and perhaps even as cherished children. Dragonborn are humanoid creatures instilled with the power and adorned with the scales of their draconic progenitors. Countless ancient wyrms have sired dragonborn clans, and no two are alike. The dragonborn banner flies over the ferocity of the chromatic dragonborn, the noble cunning of the metallic dragonborn, the mystery of the gem dragonborn, and even the ancient wisdom of the essence dragonborn.

Scales, tails, horns, fangs, claws, wings, and any feature found within dragonkind may emerge randomly for a generation, only to fall back into remission for the next. Despite this, some draconic features remain constant. Whether it be the color of the scales or the shape of the horns, some trace of a dragonborn’s original draconic ancestry always shows through.

Dragonborn Culture
There are many circumstances in which a great wyrm might choose to sire a clutch of dragonborn, and the resulting dragonborn clans are as varied as their progenitors. Ultimately though, the life and society of each dragonborn clan is inexorably linked to the dragon that created it.

Chromatic dragons usually see dragonborn as soldiers, cannon fodder to be created and spent for power and territory. Such militarized dragonborn clans tend to see their progenitor as a mighty general and inspiring leader who will guide them to glorious victory, often against dragonborn created by rival dragons. Such dragonborn clans are usually brutal, fearless, and blindly obedient to their progenitor.

Essence dragons fly wingless over distant shores, their serpentine pennant-like bodies snapping back and forth magically as they soar. Their spirits are intertwined with the magic of the land and are usually tied to a specific sea, river, or mountain, or to a separate plane entirely. Essence dragons see their dragonborn as trusted guardians and custodians, charging them with the safety and protection of the place from which they draw their power. Such dragonborn clans are often highly attuned to nature, and guard their progenitor’s home at all costs.

Gem dragons are rarely seen by surface dwellers and the same is true about their dragonborn. These wyrms live deep within the earth, sometimes for isolation and escape but often pursuing their own esoteric games and schemes millennia in the making. They see their dragonborn as agents, spies, and confidants. Their dragonborn are afforded an unusual level of respect, as they’re often the only creatures a gem dragon trusts enough to include wholly into its schemes. Such dragonborn clans are tight-knit but widely dispersed, often spending years in isolation only to reconvene when the time is right.

Metallic dragons tend to see their dragonborn as children, regardless of their age. To the outside observer, they often seem like the dragon’s servants, and functionally they often are, but the relationship is more parental than feudal—for some, a more intolerable condition since their unquestioning service is rewarded with condescension and infantilization. Despite all this, such dragonborn clans are typically academic, studious, and often a voice of calm and reason when conflicts arise.

Dragonbound | Level Up

a5e.tools

The closest example of a dragonbound culture in D&D would the Dragonborn of Argonessen in the Eberron setting.

Dragoncult | Level Up

a5e.tools

The Cult of the Dragon in the Forgotten Realms setting is a possible example of the dragoncult culture.

There are some neat things here.

My problem is that--ironically, despite the fact that Arkhosia is in some sense "a dragonborn clutch that became a whole empire"--I just don't see the shape of dragonborn culture forming if we had started from this point, rather than the point we had with 4e. Because the Golden One, the dragon emperor of Arkhosia, does all three of those things simultaneously, while not doing a bunch of the negatives this associates with it. Citizens of Arkhosia were often soldiers, but never cannon-fodder; custodians of the land, but not shackled to that duty only; seen as the Golden One's many and purely metaphorical children, but not with a demand of subservience to him, and instead a demand of vassalage under him--meaning a reciprocal relation, not a pure hierarchic one.

Of course, that's also the perfect, burnished ideal of that society, and the real thing was much more complicated and murkier, but in general, Arkhosia leans into the "noble kingdom that slowly descended into internal chaos and was overcome by a horrible disaster" type of society-level heroic tragedy. When burdened by this "all people of dragonborn physiology are the direct, spawned servants of a dragon", well, we're right back into the problems of half-dragons and draconians, just blended up and mixed together.

Dragonborn, by not being physiological descendants of dragons, and instead being able to form their own association with, hatred or avoidance of, or simple non-opinion about dragons, can thus take on a dramatically wider spectrum of possibilities.

If it makes you feel better, I do separate "Arkhosian" culture from "dragonborn" physiology. I think it's entirely possible to have had even Arkhosian tieflings (and, likewise, Turathi dragonborn), perhaps to the extent of multi-generational, loyal citizens of the "wrong" empire. But, just as we see a distinction--however subtle and not accepted in its day--between the in-Italy Roman Empire and the in-Greece Byzantine Empire (which called themsels Rhomaioi!), I see a valid distinction to be drawn here, in saying that Arkhosia was "a dragonborn empire", even if many of its citizens definitely weren't dragonborn, and even if many dragonborn were true, loyal citizens of its hated foe. That link still matters, even as we recognize that it's not the end-all, be-all.

Edit: And one reason I will be forever grateful for Arkhosia, and dragonborn, is that they finally, FINALLY gave us something that has been horrendously lacking in D&D-adjacent fiction. (Or, at least, it doesn't show up nearly often enough.) We got what TVTropes would call a "Proud Warrior Race" that WASN'T made of people who were at least two of: dumb, brutish, ugly. Arkhosian Dragonborn were smart; what little we hear of them indicates they were excellent engineers, for example, and well-known for battle strategy. Arkhosia was emphatically not brutish--it could sometimes be harsh, but they were clearly a civic, values-minded culture. And dragonborn literally get +2 Cha, so even if some folks think they're ugly (as will always be the case for anything!), they clearly have game, they can be sculpted and beautiful, not all scars and spikes etc.

I was always going to love them because I love anything dragon-y. But Arkhosia did so many fun, interesting, different things with a "proud warrior race" concept that I'll probably never completely get over it. I've intentionally kept dragonborn few, far between, and not particularly "organized" as a culture in my Jewel of the Desert game so that I am denying myself the temptation to make a nearby Totally Rad Awesome Dragonborn Civilization Where Everything Is Perfect. I know how tempting that would be for me. I can't trust myself with that possibility.

 

[Corinnguard]

Draconic Nations (Tymanther in the Forgotten Realms setting and Q'Barra in the Eberron setting)

Dragons die. They may claim immortality and endless strength but time and circumstance can wear down even the mightiest creatures. Many are killed by rivals or the efforts of heroes and armies, and some simply retreat to parts unknown, leaving behind leaderless dragonborn clans. These “orphan clans” are viewed with a mixture of derision and pity. With no progenitor to lead them many simply disperse, made exiles and scattering to the winds. Others rally around and adopt their progenitor’s goals, though they rarely hold true to those ideals and their interpretation becomes ever more distorted as generations pass.
A few rare orphaned clans build a future for themselves as a new nation, learning concepts like independence and pride as they dream of prosperity and happiness for future generations. These humble nations begin as city-states but some grow into world-class empires. Usually based around where their dragon once roosted, trap-filled caverns are slowly replaced with storerooms and housing, mountaintop lairs growing to jostle with draconic spires and battlements.
Life within draconic nations is similar to life in most populous cities, albeit with more fire breathing and scales. Commerce, agriculture, and especially metalwork flourish, aided by workers’ natural resistances and internal bellows. Once a draconic nation is founded it is deluged with draconic exiles and entire orphaned clans seeking refuge, and within a few generations the old customs and ideals of their progenitors fade.
The resulting melting pot contains a multitude of draconic bloodlines, their devotion to progenitors shifted rather than erased. Draconic nationals tend to regard their nation as they once had the dragons that led them. No longer an orphaned clan, but a people with a cause and a clear direction! Draconic nations are often filled with patriots and martyrs, loyal soldiers and earnest politicians who discover they’ll need this zeal—well placed or not—to defend themselves from other great dragons seeking to “retake these lost clans” back under a greater wing.

I really wish this sidebar from Level Up's Adventurers Guide could be translated into another Dragonborn culture.

 

[Bri]

The Mušḫuššu of Mesopatamia is considered one of the earliest 'dragon-like' creatures, its name means Red Snake and its associated with the constellation Hydra.
So a scaly animal with hind legs resembling the talons of an eagle, fore limbs like a lion, a long neck and tail, two horns on its head, a snake-like tongue, and a crest would suggest that the Dinosaur association is an ancient one.

View attachment 411773

The Greeks were the ones that gave Flying Serpents Wings

Two legged Wyvern are an English heraldic innovation

and Beowulf seems to be one of the earliest depictions of breathing fire - its specifically called a Fyrdraca

Wyvern: Etymology Viper-bird (from Old English) Aka snake bird. Anhinga.

Same morphology. Look like Loch Ness monster swimming.

 

[Mind of tempest]

There are some neat things here.

My problem is that--ironically, despite the fact that Arkhosia is in some sense "a dragonborn clutch that became a whole empire"--I just don't see the shape of dragonborn culture forming if we had started from this point, rather than the point we had with 4e. Because the Golden One, the dragon emperor of Arkhosia, does all three of those things simultaneously, while not doing a bunch of the negatives this associates with it. Citizens of Arkhosia were often soldiers, but never cannon-fodder; custodians of the land, but not shackled to that duty only; seen as the Golden One's many and purely metaphorical children, but not with a demand of subservience to him, and instead a demand of vassalage under him--meaning a reciprocal relation, not a pure hierarchic one.

Of course, that's also the perfect, burnished ideal of that society, and the real thing was much more complicated and murkier, but in general, Arkhosia leans into the "noble kingdom that slowly descended into internal chaos and was overcome by a horrible disaster" type of society-level heroic tragedy. When burdened by this "all people of dragonborn physiology are the direct, spawned servants of a dragon", well, we're right back into the problems of half-dragons and draconians, just blended up and mixed together.

Dragonborn, by not being physiological descendants of dragons, and instead being able to form their own association with, hatred or avoidance of, or simple non-opinion about dragons, can thus take on a dramatically wider spectrum of possibilities.

If it makes you feel better, I do separate "Arkhosian" culture from "dragonborn" physiology. I think it's entirely possible to have had even Arkhosian tieflings (and, likewise, Turathi dragonborn), perhaps to the extent of multi-generational, loyal citizens of the "wrong" empire. But, just as we see a distinction--however subtle and not accepted in its day--between the in-Italy Roman Empire and the in-Greece Byzantine Empire (which called themsels Rhomaioi!), I see a valid distinction to be drawn here, in saying that Arkhosia was "a dragonborn empire", even if many of its citizens definitely weren't dragonborn, and even if many dragonborn were true, loyal citizens of its hated foe. That link still matters, even as we recognize that it's not the end-all, be-all.

Edit: And one reason I will be forever grateful for Arkhosia, and dragonborn, is that they finally, FINALLY gave us something that has been horrendously lacking in D&D-adjacent fiction. (Or, at least, it doesn't show up nearly often enough.) We got what TVTropes would call a "Proud Warrior Race" that WASN'T made of people who were at least two of: dumb, brutish, ugly. Arkhosian Dragonborn were smart; what little we hear of them indicates they were excellent engineers, for example, and well-known for battle strategy. Arkhosia was emphatically not brutish--it could sometimes be harsh, but they were clearly a civic, values-minded culture. And dragonborn literally get +2 Cha, so even if some folks think they're ugly (as will always be the case for anything!), they clearly have game, they can be sculpted and beautiful, not all scars and spikes etc.

I was always going to love them because I love anything dragon-y. But Arkhosia did so many fun, interesting, different things with a "proud warrior race" concept that I'll probably never completely get over it. I've intentionally kept dragonborn few, far between, and not particularly "organized" as a culture in my Jewel of the Desert game so that I am denying myself the temptation to make a nearby Totally Rad Awesome Dragonborn Civilization Where Everything Is Perfect. I know how tempting that would be for me. I can't trust myself with that possibility.

we get to many dumb, brutish, stupid and ugly.
plenty of people want to be monstrous just not the above.