What is it with these modules on the internet?

[KarinsDad]

Hrm, sounds more like a Balance check.

It was a 10x15x8 foot tall "box" that held the mechanism for the telescope. Bascically, a raised platform with a lot of room to stand on. It was not unstable.

 

[KarinsDad]

The reason why a plan becomes time-worn and a staple of the experienced player's repertoire is because it works nearly all the time. In the session you recount, it absolutely would have worked. Thinking outside the box is OK, and we all would agree tht playing RPGs usually involves such thinking, but that doesn't mean that what is inside the box is invalidated.

Actually, it may or may not have worked much better. Having more characters, even ones with weapons with Magic Weapon on them, might have resulted in even more deaths. At most, two characters may have been able to get on the telescope platform and stayed out of its reach, but then again, maybe not.

All I know is that if anyone would have tried to fight it hand to hand, they probably would have been toasted.

So, yes, resting up is fine and may have even helped a little in hindsight when you realize that the DM was going to use critical fumble rules. But, without that knowledge, the second “combat” appeared to just be a relatively risk-free cleanup.

But, the time-worn plans are not necessarily valid in every circumstance either. Like anything else, they are tools to be used when it is deemed appropriate and you cannot use hindsight of what happened (especially with an unknown house rule) to say that it was the player’s fault for such a result because they should have used the time-worn plan. And, that is what some posters were claiming.

Regarding the mention of the ranger's Chaotic Good alignment in relation to his "pushing the button," Chaotic Good doesn't necessarily mean doing things spontaneously. It can include that, but a character could act cautiously and conservatively and still be Chaotic Good - it's about personal choice and freedom for the individual. Personally, I'd discuss this with the ranger's player, and ask him or her to not be pushing buttons and doing similar things without consulting the rest of the party. Being Chaotic doesn't give him a free pass to take actions that could effect the rest of the party.

Absolutely.

But, after "cleaning out the room", it is also not out of character to do so, especially for a first level Chaotic character who may not yet have had quite the experience to realize that he should be more cautious (freedom of choice after all).


One of the things that experienced players often do is play low level characters as if those characters have a lot of experience as well. Personally, I enjoyed playing this session with a bunch of players who are mostly inexperienced with the game since they made decisions more based on what they thought their characters would do rather than on what any experience gained playing DND for a long time.

None of them knew that they needed magical weapons to hit the Golem, so none of them suggested a course of action to leave right away. More experienced players may have cut their loses and it might have resulted in more deaths since two PCs were unconscious before most PCs even got an action in the first round.

Or, as another example, the “we must rest up” concept is one generally learned from playing the game and not necessarily one that inexperienced first level characters would always choose.


But, regardless of playing philosophy, I still think that module authors should take this type of stuff into account and at least warn DMs that virtually unstoppable monsters exist in the module. Personally, I doubt many players would have thought to create a magical spear out of the magical sword in order to even come up with a plan that might have worked. For the most part, I would think that most first level parties put into that situation (surprise round and all) would have lost one or more party members. I do not think modules should be set up this way without at least a warning. YMMV.

 

[Wolfspider]

But, regardless of playing philosophy, I still think that module authors should take this type of stuff into account and at least warn DMs that virtually unstoppable monsters exist in the module. Personally, I doubt many players would have thought to create a magical spear out of the magical sword in order to even come up with a plan that might have worked. For the most part, I would think that most first level parties put into that situation (surprise round and all) would have lost one or more party members. I do not think modules should be set up this way without at least a warning. YMMV.

Well, like I mentioned before, the adventure DOES warn the DM that the golem is a tough creature. The writers of the adventure certainly aren't at fault if the DM ignores this warning or is not very familiar with the game. They can't plan for every contingency and circumstance.

Also, I don't think it's the adventure writer's fault if your party was caught surprised by the concealed door opening and the golem stepping out. That fault lies with the ranger who opened the door without warning the party. If the ranger had warned the party instead of immediately acting, then they could have been ready with ranged weapons and spells and could have perhaps even surprised the golem. They wouldn't have done much damage to it without magical weapons, but they would have at least been more prepared to retreat and regroup.

Like others have said, you did what you could in the circumstances you were given. I do advise you to have a good talk with the person who plays the ranger. Next time he gets all inquisitive on you, it might be result in a total a total party kill.

And if you thought this golem encounter was brutally unfair and imbalanced, I can't wait to hear your reaction to Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.

*shudders*

 

[DMaple]

I can't see the problem here. This sounds like a good adventure to me with a tough encounter at the end.

The players didn't withdraw and rest but then it wasn't in their character to do that.

PC's played tactically, intelligently but importantly also in character (and therefore not alway to the very best tactical advantage) faced a suitable but tough challenge.

So someone's character died, that's something you have got to expect, especially if your playing character IC and not just to use the rules to the best advantage.

 

[Cor Azer]

KarinsDad, it sounds like the bigger problem you have here is with the DM springing a surprise house rule on you and the other players.

That's always cause for concern, but you say he's a new DM, so I guess some slack is in order. Make sure he knows, though, that house rules should be spelled out in advance (not necessarily at the beginning of a campaign, but before they're likely to happen). Having not informed the players of the rule ahead of time, he may even be a bit lenient and give a discount to raise your fallen comrade.

 

[KarinsDad]

And if you thought this golem encounter was brutally unfair and imbalanced, I can't wait to hear your reaction to Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil.

*shudders*

Actually, I ran most of RtToEE (the outer ring).

Our group (of mostly experienced players) did not have that hard of a time with two exceptions. One was the guardian towers in the middle of the mountain.

They were invisible heading towards the center and got surprised when Lightning starting hitting them. Instead of retreating, they advanced and got even more toasted. If it were not for a timely Obscuring Mist by the Druid, several party members would have died.

The other was the Dwarven Fighter getting turned to stone. That forced them to retreat for a while.

Yeah, they took some lumps in other areas, but for the most part, they played intelligently and slowly cleared it out. I even had some re-occuring villains get hired by the Temple to wipe them out, but although they got beat up, the party still managed to rally and kick their villain butts.

All in all, RtToEE is just a big dungeon crawl. Challenging, but not overwhelming for the given character levels like this Golem was. This was just plain lethal and overly so.

 

[Zenon]

I'll just have to say KD, that it's funny to watch when someone, who in other posts blasts his players for metagame thinking in drawing out AoO's before spellcatsing, has this to say when he's a player in someone elses game:

By KarinsDad

I thought the DM might just rule that since the Golem is mindless, it continues to attempt to get at the Cleric, but cannot.

Your statement reeks of metagame thinking by a player. You are as guilty of it while playing as you accuse your players to be when you DM. Shame on you!

However, as you are fond of saying, "YMMV".

More directly on topic, this adventure seems to showcase one of the things I like about 3E. You can't tell how "tough" a monster is anymore. No more "Look! It's a kobold! Kick his #$^&!" You never know, he could be a 20th level fighter. Along the same lines, you are shown you can't judge a flesh golem by looks.

I guess it's there to shake up the 22 years of experience you have by turning it upside down and giving it a swift boot. I bet it got your heart pounding when you realized what kind of monster it is (even though you didn't recognize it in-character).

Chalk it up as a new and exciting experience (and hopefully a good one).

 

[Wippit Guud]

But, the important thing here is that module designers should think out the repercussions of putting in creatures that for the most part, cannot be affected by the level of PCs who will encounter them. Bottom line. Not every DM is experienced enough to realize that such a creature could easily decimate his group.

The module says for character of levels 1-3. If the group had been level 3 characters, perhaps you would have had an easier time of it?

That's the thing with adventures. If you go in at the minimum level, it's going to be hard, and maybe even unbeatable (designers can't take into account everything). Wheras going in at the max recommended will probably find the adventure a little too easy.

And remeber the words of Obi Wan, "You can't win. But there are alternatives for fighting."

You can even ask Cor. I had a 9th level thief beat an iron golem by himself! may the gods bless knowing where the traps are

 

[omedon]

And yes, the Cleric and I discussed just retreating. But, she was eager for revenge, my character believes strongly in revenge and I thought the plan might work (which it came close to doing), so we decided to implement it.

Stupid, doubtful. Roleplaying your character, yes.

That is fine. Roleplaying your character is fine. But you have to accept the consequences. If you have a thief that is a compulsive pickpocket you shouldn't complain when he is caught pick pocketing an important noble that he is punished under the full force of the law and has his hand cut off. You can't expect the DM to make special exceptions all the time just for you. Sometimes a characters concept is going to get him into trouble.

Also from what I have read on the board there numerous ways that you could have defeated the dungeon ie. resting before pressing button. So this module it would appear, isn't too powerful for 1st level characters. If it was too powerful it would be impossible, or ridiculously hard (for example, you need to get all crit threts to hit the opponent or they need all crit misses in order not to hit you), no matter what your tactics.

It sounds like a lot of things were going against you in this battle, like the critical misses and the lack of knowledge about magic weapons. Some times the dice just don't roll in your favour and there is nothing you can do about it. If there was never any threat of the party being wiped out gaming wouldn't be fun.

I liked your "magic spear" tactic though. Very good thinking. Too bad it didn't work out for you.

 

[S'mon]

Although I couldn't really see a problem, maybe the adventure should have been listed as 'for levels 2-4' instead of 'for levels 1-3'. But generally, 1st level PCs need so little XP to get to 2nd level that if it's a tough scenario and the GM is lenient with training they should be 2nd level after the first few encounters anyway, before they have to fight the big bad at the end of the module.
There is a bit of a problem in 3e in running scenarios for 1st level PCs that so many low-CR monsters do vast amounts of damage on a hit. It starts with the CR 1/2 orc and his 1d12+3 damage great axes. I give them regular axes or scimitars and the PCs get to survive their first orc.