D&D 5E What is Quality?

[Crimson Longinus]

One weird trick…statisticians hate this guy!

A minority of games reach 13th level. Of the parties that reach 13th level, a non-negligible amount of them do not has a caster that can cast Simulcrum. Even among parties of the correct level with access to the spell, there are many reasons a player may not cast it (not interested in the spell, did not have the components, does not have 12 hours to cast, etc.).

So, it is fair to say, that except for a minority of the minority, Simulcrum does not figure in their evaluation of the design quality of the game except in the abstract.

However, among parties that have reached 13th level and that have casters with both access to Simulcrum and an opportunity to use it, it seems that there is a high proportion of tables that ban it, nerf it, or otherwise consider that it unbalances the game to an unacceptable degree. So, among those for whom it is a relevant concern, it seems that Simulcrum is not a well-designed spell.

Just another reason that the popularity of a game is irrelevant to determining whether individual components are well-designed.

Sure, but it probably tells us something about whether majority or at least the critical components are of satisfactory quality. If most people had similar experience with most spells than they have with Simulacrum, that would probably negatively affect the popularity.

 

[DND_Reborn]

See, I do rate is as good, but could be "better" (but then just about everything could be better, so that's not saying much).

And I've seen some of the changes you'd make. While I think they could make for a good game they would Highly subtract from MY D&D experience.

Take the swinginess of the d20. I fully acknowledge the swinginess and like that in D&D. going to 3d6 would be horrible for me (I've played GURPS and it is lackluster for me, mostly BECAUSE of the saminess of the 3d6).

So it's quite difficult to come to a happy medium there!

Yep, and that is the point about quality of anything is fairly subjective.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Sure, but it probably tells us something about whether majority or at least the critical components are of satisfactory quality. If most people had similar experience with most spells than they have with Simulacrum, that would probably negatively affect the popularity.

but if most people that interact with 7th 8th and 9th level spells run into it with all 7th 8th and 9th level spells (and I am not say that is true saying if) then would that mean that the last 1/3 of the game is of poor quality (that I am saying... like not holding back at all I think levels over 13 fall apart without a very good dm).

One of the catch 22s we ran into was some people claiming that fighters had all the advantages from level 1-9 (before 5th level spells came on line fro full casters) while others argued you had to compare 20th level with 4 attacks 2 extra feats and THAT was when it equaled out... either one to me sounds bad (although I disagree with both) if you have to play half the game unbalanced that seems to me to BE unbalanced...

I don't want to relitigate the martial/caster issues though, so I will switch to caster vs caster... we KNOW they made some spells more powerful than there levels indicate (fireball and magic missile both hit above there weight class on purpose) but just by accident (I assume since no statement has come to light yet) we have Sod/SoS spells at every level... so you never 'grow' into being able to shuts down enemies you just always can (Can meaning if they miss the save or the condition that avoids the save). However this leads to 2 casters being VERY different in power in play and as such makes CRs harder to rate (Can this group all throw SoD, do they all have optimal damage?)

 

[Umbran]

this is an issue I run into a lot when talking about cars. I am not a car guy, so tech specs are lost on me if not very general. However I can say I have had better experience with foreign breed cars then US made ones... but as I have been told time and time again, no matter where the company HQ is all the cars are made in factories here. SO what is the difference? no clue (again not a car guy) but I have seen people get (almost) as protective of the car brand as we do our games...

Oh, goodness, yes. And this is a great point for us on these forums, because most of us are probably the equivalent of "car guys" for RPGs, right?

But, the car guys of the world often forget something - there is such a thing as "good enough". Failing to be the best of the best of the best does not mean a thing is bad. Especially when any car guy should know that being high in one mode of performance usually means you are poor at something else. Lamborghinis and Mack trucks can both be good, but they don't have the same performance characteristics - and you liking one kind of performance doesn't mean others are bad...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Oh, goodness, yes. And this is a great point for us on these forums, because most of us are probably the equivalent of "car guys" for RPGs, right?

100%

we are the small sub set of the subset. We know the rules (or at least think we do).

 

[DND_Reborn]

there is such a thing as "good enough"

Totally agree. If my group said, "Look, we know you like house-ruling everything, but can we just play 5E pretty much RAW?" I wouldn't be thrilled about it, but sure it is definitely "good enough" to use as is.

 

[Umbran]

It certainly seems like we could do that. It also seems like we could say that for a few people it’s low quality.

The latter shouldn’t be so perturbing.

But, it should be even less perturbing, and possibly more insightful, to own your personal tastes.

 

[Lanefan]

Being a Chicago sports fan 100% of the conversations I have with people about our shared interest is our shared misery. It's what bonds us. If the Bears were good, I don't think the city would know what to do.

Which strikes me as a bit odd given how many major championships Chicago teams have won in my lifetime - The Black Hawks got a couple of Stanley Cups, the Cubs won a World Series, the Bulls won a ton of rings in the MJ era, and even the Bears got a Super Bowl win.

Contrast this with Vancouver, which - other than the Whitecaps winning NASL (a predecessor of today's MLS) in 1979 - has nothing to show for anything over the last 50+ years. You think your fans complain? Just spend some time out here and let our lot show you how it's done!

Bringing this back to RPGs, people can still very much like 5e (or 4e, or any other e) and still complain about it, or aspects of it; because no matter how loudly each edition's supporters might shout otherwise, none of the editions has been perfect.

 

[Lanefan]

Both of these are related (at least for me) because they speak to one of the big problems I have with the 5e DMG.

It seems to be written to be read instead of used (as a reference/rules manual).

What does that mean? That the language is natural and that it flows well - but that it is not organized in such a way as to be easily referenced and it's grouped in such a way as to flow for reading as opposed to for looking up rules etc.

Baby steps, old chap, baby steps - it might be just as disorganized as its predecessors but is at least more readable, which is progress.

By about 12e they'll have got it right, just wait and see.

 

[Morrus]

this is an issue I run into a lot when talking about cars. I am not a car guy, so tech specs are lost on me if not very general. However I can say I have had better experience with foreign breed cars then US made ones... but as I have been told time and time again, no matter where the company HQ is all the cars are made in factories here. SO what is the difference? no clue (again not a car guy) but I have seen people get (almost) as protective of the car brand as we do our games...

One of the biggest tricks that major corporations pulled was getting their customers to market for them with such brand loyalty that they become ferocious evangelists willing to smite down those who do not share their brand enthusiasm. Whether that‘s your car, your mobile phone, comic book movies, or even—as we are seeing here—TTRPGs. People even form tribes based on what computer operating system they use, of all things!