• The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!

D&D 5E What is Quality?

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Baby steps, old chap, baby steps - it might be just as disorganized as its predecessors but is at least more readable, which is progress.

By about 12e they'll have got it right, just wait and see. :)

Ah but that's the thing.

5e is not more organized than 4e was. 4e was extremely well organized and read more like an instruction manual (deliberately more technical language vs. the flowing natural language of past editions).

5e is a clearly deliberate step back and away from that. Back to more natural (but also more confusing) language and a more flowy reading oriented presentation style.

A clear and deliberate choice on the part of WoTC because they thought it would sell better (and it seems they were correct).
 

log in or register to remove this ad

James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Which strikes me as a bit odd given how many major championships Chicago teams have won in my lifetime - The Black Hawks got a couple of Stanley Cups, the Cubs won a World Series, the Bulls won a ton of rings in the MJ era, and even the Bears got a Super Bowl win.

Contrast this with Vancouver, which - other than the Whitecaps winning NASL (a predecessor of today's MLS) in 1979 - has nothing to show for anything over the last 50+ years. You think your fans complain? Just spend some time out here and let our lot show you how it's done! :)

Bringing this back to RPGs, people can still very much like 5e (or 4e, or any other e) and still complain about it, or aspects of it; because no matter how loudly each edition's supporters might shout otherwise, none of the editions has been perfect.
Chicago fans have a love/hate relationship with most of the teams. When they're winning, why, we have always loved team X, and they're going all the way, baby! When they're losing, we grumble and gripe about the most ridiculous things, as if they owe us anything, and act personally betrayed by changes in players or coaching staff we don't like.

Why, in some extreme cases, I've seen disappointed Bears fans start rooting for (hold onto your hats)....Green Bay!

As if somehow their derision will inspire the Bears to do better. Oh also, we hate anything that comes out of New York, those rich, entitled jerks!
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Chicago fans have a love/hate relationship with most of the teams. When they're winning, why, we have always loved team X, and they're going all the way, baby! When they're losing, we grumble and gripe about the most ridiculous things, as if they owe us anything, and act personally betrayed by changes in players or coaching staff we don't like.

Why, in some extreme cases, I've seen disappointed Bears fans start rooting for (hold onto your hats)....Green Bay!

As if somehow their derision will inspire the Bears to do better. Oh also, we hate anything that comes out of New York, those rich, entitled jerks!

Had a friend visit during playoff season (a few years ago) and he wore a Packers Jersey when we went out to eat. Thought we were going to get mobbed! Certainly got some pretty dirty looks!
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Thoughts?
Sounds quite reasonable to me. Just as how I have argued that one cannot reason from "X is popular, therefore every individual component of X is popular," there is the reverse problem: we may not know which specific components are vital to the experience and which are optional or even detrimental to it. This, unfortunately, leads many designers (not just in TTRPGs) to "play it safe," failing to critically examine their work because it's risky to make changes. You see this sort of thing a lot in video games. When a particular game becomes very popular, it can actually ossify not just itself but its whole genre. World of Warcraft is a good example here for its genre (MMORPGs), a hegemony and reluctance to change that has dealt the game some harsh lessons recently, but another is Master of Orion, a series that casts a long, long shadow over the space 4X genre and which even the MoO games themselves (specifically MoO3 and the recent remake) have struggled to step out of.

It is a difficult thing to address flaws in a system. There are reasons Paizo gave it a decade with the slightly tweaked 3.5e they were running, and "because our customers ask for it" isn't the only one.

Hence why I have tried to make a clear distinction between bad design (which, as I've said, more or less means design that has to be replaced because it just doesn't work as is) and weak design (which does still function, but falls significantly short of what it could achieve if iterated upon, revised, or augmented by some other thing). 5e has very little outright bad design (IMO, the only part of it that is truly bad is the CR system because it's got exactly the same problems as 3e's CR system had.) But it has a lot of weak design, whether in the form of trying to serve conflicting goals with a single structure simultaneously, or setting a very reasonable design goal and then falling quite a bit short. And I lay much of the blame for its weak design elements on the amount of wasted time and silly choices made during the playtest period.
 

niklinna

satisfied?
5e is not more organized than 4e was. 4e was extremely well organized and read more like an instruction manual (deliberately more technical language vs. the flowing natural language of past editions).
Well! 4e was more organized, until they started putting out extra material in additional players' handbooks, issues of Dragon magazine, Xxxxx Power supplements, and more. Finding options for your character got to be a real chore! (I had a crazy spreadsheet for my 4e warlock to at least have his own stuff in one place.)

But yes, the original Players' Handbook was very well organized and clearly written.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
Well! 4e was more organized, until they started putting out extra material in additional players' handbooks, issues of Dragon magazine, Xxxxx Power supplements, and more. Finding options for your character got to be a real chore! (I had a crazy spreadsheet for my 4e warlock to at least have his own stuff in one place.)

But yes, the original Players' Handbook was very well organized and clearly written.
I played a lot of 4e but my group tended to ignore the later supplements - just too much and not needed for us!
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
Sounds quite reasonable to me. Just as how I have argued that one cannot reason from "X is popular, therefore every individual component of X is popular," there is the reverse problem: we may not know which specific components are vital to the experience and which are optional or even detrimental to it. This, unfortunately, leads many designers (not just in TTRPGs) to "play it safe," failing to critically examine their work because it's risky to make changes. You see this sort of thing a lot in video games. When a particular game becomes very popular, it can actually ossify not just itself but its whole genre. World of Warcraft is a good example here for its genre (MMORPGs), a hegemony and reluctance to change that has dealt the game some harsh lessons recently, but another is Master of Orion, a series that casts a long, long shadow over the space 4X genre and which even the MoO games themselves (specifically MoO3 and the recent remake) have struggled to step out of.

It is a difficult thing to address flaws in a system. There are reasons Paizo gave it a decade with the slightly tweaked 3.5e they were running, and "because our customers ask for it" isn't the only one.

Hence why I have tried to make a clear distinction between bad design (which, as I've said, more or less means design that has to be replaced because it just doesn't work as is) and weak design (which does still function, but falls significantly short of what it could achieve if iterated upon, revised, or augmented by some other thing). 5e has very little outright bad design (IMO, the only part of it that is truly bad is the CR system because it's got exactly the same problems as 3e's CR system had.) But it has a lot of weak design, whether in the form of trying to serve conflicting goals with a single structure simultaneously, or setting a very reasonable design goal and then falling quite a bit short. And I lay much of the blame for its weak design elements on the amount of wasted time and silly choices made during the playtest period.
See the CR system of 4E and now PF2 really doesnt work for me. Its too predictable, too tightly wound. I prefer the more loose and ambiguous 3E/PF1/5E system. I can recognize its not a good quality design, but its one that I value. Which is the constant balance that designers face when creating products.
 

Mort

Legend
Supporter
See the CR system of 4E and now PF2 really doesnt work for me. Its too predictable, too tightly wound. I prefer the more loose and ambiguous 3E/PF1/5E system. I can recognize its not a good quality design, but its one that I value. Which is the constant balance that designers face when creating products.

I too like the 3e/5e CR system. It may be "loose" but it works quite well for me and I can tailor my encounters to what I need using it.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
Ah but that's the thing.

5e is not more organized than 4e was. 4e was extremely well organized and read more like an instruction manual (deliberately more technical language vs. the flowing natural language of past editions).

5e is a clearly deliberate step back and away from that. Back to more natural (but also more confusing) language and a more flowy reading oriented presentation style.

A clear and deliberate choice on the part of WoTC because they thought it would sell better (and it seems they were correct).
Now this? You won't hear me argue about any of this.

4e aimed to be maximally transparent. I'm fairly sure Heinsoo and the other designers thought that if the rules were clear and clean, no muss no fuss, that they would be giving people what they wanted, rules that "fall away" or "get out of the way" because there would be no difficulty in seeing how they worked. As soon as you knew what a certain keyword meant, you would know what it meant everywhere. Learn the basic lingo, and everything else falls into place. This would free players and DMs to tell the stories they liked, unburdened by cumbersome verbiage that many of them would have ignored anyway.

This proved incorrect. Many players disliked the layout and presentation, seeing it as sterile and formulaic. Even though spells have always been formulaic, this made their formulaic nature seemingly too obvious. Despite flowery natural language being objectively more difficult to parse (consider the many complaints in ye olden dayse about how difficult it was to use 3e monster star locks), players valued the texture and implicit weight of that presentation, even if they never actually intended to use even a single sentence of it (whether due to not wanting that specific item/spell/etc., using a homebrew world where such details would be overridden, using house-rules that modified things too far, etc.)

I would in fact call this an objective decrease in quality, making the game more opaque, more involved to use, because a degree of "clunky" engagement, where you must carefully parse the whole text of (say) a particular spell in order to use it correctly, is in fact desirable to many existing players. It is less desirable to  new players, but 5e was always about targeting lapsed fans well enough to keep things going. New players were always a secondary concern. If it had been meant for new players specifically, I can guarantee the early levelling experience would have been quite a bit different.
 

payn

He'll flip ya...Flip ya for real...
I too like the 3e/5e CR system. It may be "loose" but it works quite well for me and I can tailor my encounters to what I need using it.
Yeah, when I can swallow my pride and say the tighter system is better quality, but that doesn't make it leagues better. The experience still counts for something.
 

Remove ads

Top