What is Science-Fantasy to you?

[Gellion]

All i know, is that i like Science Fantasy a lot better than Science Fiction.

 

[Bloodstone Press]

I've been kicking around some ideas about a steam-age sci-fantasy setting too. I've been reading up on the literary elements of both genres and thinking about ways to combine them. I've also been studying several other settings that combine those elements. It seems an increasingly popular thing to do...


One of the definitions of the differences between sci-fi and fantasy I’ve seen is "'Science fiction deals with improbable possibilities, fantasy with plausible impossibilities.”


In my opinion, there are only two genres; sci-fi and fantasy. The term "science fantasy" is like the term "half-elf." it isn't really one or the other, but a little of both. However, all such stories can be grouped into one of those two genres. Either they are sci-fi with fantasy elements added. Or they are fantasy with sci-fi elements added.

Although Star Wars is in the gray area of "science Fantasy," I think it is ultimately a fantasy story with sci-fi elements added to it. "A long time ago... far, far away" is almost synonymous with "once upon a time." Not to mention the clear themes of good/evil and religion. And let’s not forget the swords, princesses and knights.

I don't see Buck Rogers as being in the gray area of "science fantasy" at all. I think it is clear sci-fi. It is more an improbable possibility than a plausible impossibility, to me. I would put Star Trek, anything post apocalyptic like Thundarr or Mad Max, and all of Asimov's work in the sci-fi category too.

For me, the question of "possibility" depends on whether the setting is based on a supposed future or alteration of our own world or not. If the answer is "yes" then the story probably, but not always, falls into the Sci-fi category.

If the answer is "no. The story takes place in an imaginary time or place that isn't a supposed future or alteration of our current real world." then I think it is most probably, but not always, a fantasy story.

 

[Steverooo]

It's sheer fantasy, with the trappings of Sci-Fi, instead. Gamma World is a good example.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

SpellJammers is that sort of a Science-Fantasy?

No, it's pure fantasy, since it doesn't even bother with any scientific-sounding technobabble.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

I played in a Fading Suns LARP for a while, and the setting made me miserable. There is no substance to it. It is as superficial as a stage set, with all the institutions standing in places cribbed from history, and no idea of how they work or why the people find it advantageous to act as they do. My character was a bishop, and everyone agreed that bishops are powerful: apparently I was just supposed to act powerful, because no-one had any idea of what my powers actually were, and when I tried to use them they turned out not to be there.

That, to me, sounds like a problem with the LARP group, and not the setting.

As for bishops, they are the highest-ranking members of the church hierarchy in a territory ranging from a large city to a continent. This means that they have hordes of underlings to do their bigging (how loyal and competent they are is highly variable, just as with any buerocracy), and have tremendous influence over the faithful - including nobles, who must pay at least lip service to the faith. All but the most decadent and ruthless nobles will try to avoid public censure of a priest of that rank, for they don't want their peasants rise in rebellion against them.

OK, there are no specific game mechanics for this - but bishops have tremendous social influence, and if the game is run well, it will show.

No one seems to have any idea about how the contending groups actually achieve any of the things they do: how cults gain influence in the Church,

By preaching to the people, trying to get their own people into the right places of the Church hierarchy - and if they are particularily ruthless, using blackmail and assassination to get ahead.

Real-world history has plenty of examples how various religions and denominations have tried to gain influence - and pretty much all are applicable here.

how noble houses make people dukes.

Only the heads of the houses can do that - and even then, they will only do this with members of their own house. And the duke-wannabees had better be closely related to the head of the house or done something really impressive, like conquering a new world of the house...

Fading Suns is a montage of historical and fantasy pastiches, with superficial SF stage-dressing (and not even SF costumes). There is no coherency within its social and political structures, let alone there being any coherency between its basic assumptions and the personal and social responses to them. Take half a step from the intended point of view and the tromp l'oiel fails completely, it becomes clear that the structures are framework and canvas suspended by wires; seize any of the levers and it will twist and crumple in your hand.

So, how is that different from Star Wars?

 

[Agback]

As for bishops, they are the highest-ranking members of the church hierarchy in a territory ranging from a large city to a continent.

Ah! So there is a Church hierarchy, then. This presumably has a ordinary jurisdiction over the clergy of all sects on a territorial basis. So did the Eskatonics require my licence to preach within my diocese? Did the Brother Battle adept require my offices to consecrate a chapel? Could I conduct a visitation to make sure that all theurges were confessing on a regular basis (as canon law requires them to do)? If I excommunicated someone, were sects other than the Orthodoxy enjoined against performing services for them? My assumption was that the answers to all these questions was 'yes'. Everyone else's (except those of the Temple Avesti, who was played by a Catholic) was 'no'.

(My GMs' responses to questions of this sort may be scanned at http://www.goldweb.com.au/~fred/carbonek/carbonek_setting_church.html and http://www.goldweb.com.au/~fred/carbonek/carbonek_setting_evill.html.)

The thing is that there is no point in saying that a character commands respect unless the players know how far that out to go.

tremendous influence over the faithful - including nobles, who must pay at least lip service to the faith. All but the most decadent and ruthless nobles will try to avoid public censure of a priest of that rank, for they don't want their peasants rise in rebellion against them.

OK, there are no specific game mechanics for this

There aren't even non-game specifics. There are no specifics, just generalities.

trying to get their own people into the right places of the Church hierarchy

How?

Real-world history has plenty of examples how various religions and denominations have tried to gain influence - and pretty much all are applicable here.

They can't all be applicable, because so many of them are contradictory. Are bishops elected by the faithful of their dioceses? By the clergy of their dioceses? Appointed by their immediate superiors? Appointed by the Patriarch?

How did Temple Aeon wrest the patriarchy from the Orthodoxy? How did the Orthodoxy get it back? The answers to these questions will dictate the nature of the intrigue in which players have to take part, and it is impossible to play an intriguant without knowing what favours you have at your disposal and what favours others have in their gift.

So, how is that different from Star Wars?

It's not different in kind: both Star Wars and Fading Suns are superficial works of Space Opera. Fading Suns is just a clearer example among RPG products. I thought of running some Star Wars once, and wasted a week trying to make a version of the setting that made a bit of sense and didn't make Ben Kenobi a total liar. I couldn't do it.

Regards,


Brett

[edited: coding, typo]

 

[hong]

Does anyone else here classify works of literature by body count?

- body count 0-10: chick lit, you know, boring pap like Pride and Prejudice, Othello, To Kill a Mockingbird and stuff. You don't blow anything up.

- body count 10-1,000: modern-day action, low fantasy. You blow up a building.

- body count 1,000-100,000: high fantasy. You blow up a kingdom.

- body count 100,000-10,000,000: epic/apocalyptic fantasy. You blow up the world.

- body count 10,000,000+: science fiction. You blow up worlds, plural.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Ah! So there is a Church hierarchy, then. This presumably has a ordinary jurisdiction over the clergy of all sects on a territorial basis.

Well, sort of. The whole of the faith is called "The Universal Church of the Celestial Sun". But it gets a bit tricky where the various sects are concerned.

Urth Orthodox effectively is the church hierarchy, and thus the most power, and in most cases an Orthodox bishop will have jurisdiction over the other sects. Especially the Avestities - they are still "in penance" and have to obey any Orthodox priest who outranks them. And Sanctuary Aeon members will comply in most cases - though they might sometimes risk confrontation if they feel a pressing need (and then hope that the rest of their order and the populace backs them up).

Members of the Escatonic Order would theoretically also fall under the bishop's jurisdiction, but they have a nasty habit of ignoring any hierarchies that don't suit them. The Brother Battle, on the other hand, are only beholden to the Patriarch - a bishop might be able to accuse one of them of church crimes, and if he has the evidence might pull it off, but he cannot give them orders. Still, the order will rarely refuse reasonable requests by a bishop.

So did the Eskatonics require my licence to preach within my diocese?

Well, in theory the Eskatonics are "upstanding members of the church", and thus don't need anyone's permission to preach. In practice, a bishop shouldn't have any problems running them out of town at the slightest hint of trouble. Just have someone follow them around, take notes of their sermons, and nail them for anything smacking of deviating from church canon. With most Eskatonics this should be easy...

Did the Brother Battle adept require my offices to consecrate a chapel?

Probably not - they are independent, as mentioned above.

Could I conduct a visitation to make sure that all theurges were confessing on a regular basis (as canon law requires them to do)?

Yes with Orthodox and Avestites, probably yes with Sanctuary Aeon, no with Brother Battle. Probably with the Eskatonics as well, though this might annoy them a lot.

If I excommunicated someone, were sects other than the Orthodoxy enjoined against performing services for them?

All of them - at least in theory. Members of other orders might support them secretly (especially Those Pesky Escatonics), but no one is allowed to help them unless they wish to be excommunicated themselves. Expect some of them to complain to your superiors though, if they consider the issue important enough.

My assumption was that the answers to all these questions was 'yes'. Everyone else's (except those of the Temple Avesti, who was played by a Catholic) was 'no'.

(My GMs' responses to questions of this sort may be scanned at http://www.goldweb.com.au/~fred/carbonek/carbonek_setting_church.html and http://www.goldweb.com.au/~fred/carbonek/carbonek_setting_evill.html.)

The thing is that there is no point in saying that a character commands respect unless the players know how far that out to go.

Well, realistically, no one of a lower rank in any sect - or most nobles, guilders, and all peasants, for that matter - will be very, very wary of crossing you. You can excommunicate them, and that's a very powerful threat. You hold immense power over the hearts of the peasants in your area of influence, and no noble or guilder will ignore that. All the NPCs and PCs you act with should at least appear to be courteous and firm believers in the faith if they know what is good for them.

And if someone tries to stand up to you... well, there are lots of people trying to curry your favor. Or at least, there ought to be.

(Sorry, gotta go - more answers will come later...)

 

[Agback]

Well, sort of. The whole of the faith is called "The Universal Church of the Celestial Sun". But it gets a bit tricky where the various sects are concerned.

...and the background material is inspecific about the tricky parts. That's my complaint.

Urth Orthodox effectively is the church hierarchy, and thus the most power, and in most cases an Orthodox bishop will have jurisdiction over the other sects.

I thought that was obvious, but teh other players disagreed. Indicating that the background material is deficient.

Well, in theory the Eskatonics are "upstanding members of the church", and thus don't need anyone's permission to preach.

I am used to an arrangement where anyone requires a licence from the bishop or special faculties from the Pope to preach or to teach.

All the NPCs and PCs you act with should at least appear to be courteous and firm believers in the faith if they know what is good for them.

Yes, but to what extent? And what happens if they don't? Or if I push them too far?

And if someone tries to stand up to you... well, there are lots of people trying to curry your favor. Or at least, there ought to be.

Why? How? What do I have to do to requite their currying favour?

(Sorry, gotta go - more answers will come later...)

Never mind. I don't actually want answers (and if I were playing I would want my GMs' answers, not yours: they are likely to be different). I am only trying to indicate that the background material is woefully incomplete and vague.

Regards,


Agback

 

[Norfleet]

SpellJammers is that sort of a Science-Fantasy?

No, it's pure fantasy, since it doesn't even bother with any scientific-sounding technobabble.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss it. They had the Phlogiston and all that. That was, in the era of the ancient Greeks, contemporary scientific technobabble. The entire combustion-as-phlogiston theory was only replaced by the concept of oxidation within the past few hundred years. If you ask the people of that era, this would constitute science fiction: The idea of concepts like "sudden decompression" simply hadn't been conceived yet. Sudden decompression sucks, or blows, depending on how you look at it.

Today's "Science Fiction" may very well be tomorrow's flat out fantasy....or reality. When it comes down to it, there's settings which are based nearly entirely on the "real world", with fictional events and characters set in a historically authentic setting, and then there's setting which are based on completely fictional worlds, where the setting is based around mechanics which simply didn't and never existed in the real world at time of writing.