What is the essence of D&D

Hussar

Legend
Another possibility the Primacy of Magic theory continues to overlook is that it didn't feel like D&D to different people for different reasons. So different people, different reasons but those different reasons creating a common feeling of disconnect.

What are those different reasons? Can you enumerate them please? Because from my perspective, the "it didn't feel like D&D" generally falls under a couple of reasons and most of them can be linked pretty clearly to the Primacy of Magic.
 

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Nagol

Unimportant
What are those different reasons? Can you enumerate them please? Because from my perspective, the "it didn't feel like D&D" generally falls under a couple of reasons and most of them can be linked pretty clearly to the Primacy of Magic.

Off the top of my head and by no means complete and certainly not in any priority order:
  • a laser-like focus on combat pillar
  • the ebb and flow of combat -- the narrative of the PCs getting pushed down, rallying and coming back for a win is pretty deeply baked in
  • the additional restrictions wrt operational movement, planning, and investigation, both magical and slightly less magical
  • the commonality of magicks previously kept to higher level use (Misty Step for one)
  • square circles and short hypotenuses
  • abilities exclusively existing as combat assets
  • reduced reliance on external resources
  • reduced value of magic items and thus reason to explore
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
  • a laser-like focus on combat pillar

First edition with tie in of experience point gain with non-combat .... conflict. This is actually "mostly" a DM side feature not a player one however.

In fact I would say skill challenges and the encouragement to allow very empowered uses of skills, call that a mistaken impression...
 
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doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
No.

It just manifests in a different way.

In 0-1-2-3e and to some extent 5e what's magic vs what's mundane is almost always fairly obvious. Anyone in the game can see or read or play through something and (with rare exceptions) say about any given element "that's magic" or "that's not magic".

4e very much blurred this distinction by adding and codifying so-called "supernatural" powers for martials, monsters, etc. These powers, to some including me, appear to be simply magical (as in non-mundane) abilities put under a different label; meaning that magic becomes if anything more pervasive - if also more subtle - through 4e than any other version of D&D.

Which means yes, the primacy of magic is a (not the, but a) core essence of D&D across all versions.

Yeah, I think @Oofta hit upon what @Tony Vargas was aiming toward a few pages back.

The magic classes need, for some segment of the player base, to be playing a different game from the mundane classes. They need to run on a different chassis, approach the game differently, and that needs to pervade all major facets of the game, from presentation, to gameplay, to how the narrative interacts with player decisions, for the game to feel like dnd.

I definitely don’t need that specific split, but because I do need something like that split between individual classes (which is why I’ve never viewed fighter as a worthwhile class on any level before 4e) and different ways of building each class, I can sympathize.

I need to be able to make two rogues and have them play differently, which only 4e and 5e have ever done, IMO. The class table looking the same doesn’t matter at all to me, because a Swashbuckler and a Thief simply do different things in nearly any scene in the game, and even why they do the same they approach differently. Same deal means that a melee pure DPR rogue and a ranged secondary control rogue in 4e might as well be two different classes for me. Because the formatting is just dressing, to me. It doesn’t matter. It’s wholly irrelevant the second I’ve printed my character sheet out.

If someone needs rogues and wizards to be build using different tools and run on different chassis with different engines, 4e ain’t gonna work no matter how different the actual gameplay outcomes of two different powers are. Flaming Sphere isn’t anything like Come and Get It in terms of what happens in the narrative or the mechanics of the game, but because they’re formatted the same, they fail the above test. I’m perfectly happy to argue about the accuracy of terminology in order to get closer to what point someone is trying to make, but since it offends others here apparently, I give up.
 



Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Mostly face to face, some on fidonet.
A&E was the gaming forums for many of us. I actually contributed to the Zine doing cover art as well as a few articles. Which were basically ended with back and forth mini conversations between contributors .... a lot less speedy than the forums and a reason to have typing skill ;)
 

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
What are those different reasons? Can you enumerate them please? Because from my perspective, the "it didn't feel like D&D" generally falls under a couple of reasons and most of them can be linked pretty clearly to the Primacy of Magic.

Maybe that's because you see a conspiracy where there isn't one. Because AEDU was an attempt to standardize and thus balance the classes, not liking AEDU must really be about not liking the balance, which means....PRIMACY OF MAGIC!

But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
 

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