What is the essence of D&D

Oofta

Title? I don't need no stinkin' title.
QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7815108, member: 22779"]
Sorry, @lowkey13, but, what is that from? It does look very cool.
[/QUOTE]
What @lowkey13 forgot to mention is that Catra is a chaotic evil Tabaxi.

Or is it just redundant to say that cats are chaotic evil?
 
Wow, 7 straight posts directly addressing me and NOT ONE actually answering my question.
Or, better yet, using the 1e or 2e ruleset, what roll would I make to jump 60 feet with my thief? Or 5e for that matter?
Jumping? in 1e? Erm… er.. Stand up, go in the back yard, and show me how you jump? 2e... I guess there might have been an NWP that applied?

Ah, 3e, conveniently, the DC is the number of feet you want to jump: 60! Unless you do it without the 20' running start, then it's DC 120. Still, should be able to cheese that up, somehow, at some level, this /is/ 3e. There's no speed erm limit, so you can use jump to override your speed (encumbrance! ha!), though if your speed is low, you take a penalty.

4e, aside from being in squares, similar to 3e, except you need to have the move available to go the distance you jump, but you can use two moves in a row. There's some rogue utilities that help, starting at level 2, but not until the level 22 is there one likely to let you do it readily - eThieves don't get 'em, of course.

5e: no check! all you need is a STR of 60! And move of 60, because that bit works basically like 4e (though it's not clear you can use your move to Jump and Dash to continue the jump, if so, 30 does it)
Which, compared to the STR, should be easy.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
In the context of playing the game what a character can do all day hardly matters. What matters is what you can do when it matters in the critical moments.
Depends. Are you looking to play the hare (flash and dash until it runs out of steam) or the tortoise (which just keeps on going all day)?

Because I happen to remember who won that race... :)

Hussar said:
Wow, 7 straight posts directly addressing me and NOT ONE actually answering my question.

And I get accused of bad faith?
You might want to give post numbers on these, as of the 5 posts immediately above the one quoted, four are either direct replies to me or in relation to something I said, and the other is - somewhat amazingly - a direct answer to the question in the title of the thread.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Jumping? in 1e? Erm… er.. Stand up, go in the back yard, and show me how you jump? 2e... I guess there might have been an NWP that applied?

Ah, 3e, conveniently, the DC is the number of feet you want to jump: 60! Unless you do it without the 20' running start, then it's DC 120. Still, should be able to cheese that up, somehow, at some level, this /is/ 3e. There's no speed erm limit, so you can use jump to override your speed (encumbrance! ha!), though if your speed is low, you take a penalty.

4e, aside from being in squares, similar to 3e, except you need to have the move available to go the distance you jump, but you can use two moves in a row. There's some rogue utilities that help, starting at level 2, but not until the level 22 is there one likely to let you do it readily - eThieves don't get 'em, of course.

5e: no check! all you need is a STR of 60! And move of 60, because that bit works basically like 4e (though it's not clear you can use your move to Jump and Dash to continue the jump, if so, 30 does it)
Which, compared to the STR, should be easy.
Doing so well until that last one. In 5e you can make an athletics check to "You try to jump an unusually long distance." What does that mean? I have no idea. If you can always jump your strength, but not farther without some sort of roll, is 1 foot unusually long? 10 feet? Double? 50% further? No clue.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
4e, aside from being in squares, similar to 3e, except you need to have the move available to go the distance you jump, but you can use two moves in a row. There's some rogue utilities that help, starting at level 2, but not until the level 22 is there one likely to let you do it readily - eThieves don't get 'em, of course.
The rogues double jump is high level if you choose it ( that 22 is perhaps a 5e ,16) but you can do your normal running jump without a run and possibly exceed your speed via skill power (and with a 1 square bonus via the power and possibly a good roll) early on even at level 2 -- its basically heroes who specialize can do a nice burst once per encounter and do the pretty extensive skill and attribute advancement in 4e even the baseline is not static you get better. Paragon is one square farther. Epic ends at 2 squares farther.

And as for primacy of magic ? In 4e add on a pair of magic boots and get 3 squares more once per encounter (instead of 1 from the low level skill power).

The 5e standing jump is more than a bit conservative aka mundane with nobody but the maximumly pumped barbarian reliably hitting olympic class standing jumps till level 20 and has been pointed out no clue what a skill check might do ... no shared expectations created.
 
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Campbell

Relaxed Intensity
At the end of the day unless you are willing to meaningfully design the noncombat prowess of martial characters while explicitly defining the noncombat prowess of spell casters you cannot have meaningfully balanced classes because the game design is not finished. It will be designed in motion. That is not necessarily like a problem. It's just a thing.

I do find it somewhat strange that one of the constant critiques of Fourth Edition was that the rules focused to much on combat when many fans were desperate for more noncombat stuff for fighters and rogues who are now told they cannot have noncombat stuff. Not like wrong. Just strange.

This division feels pretty unique to Dungeons and Dragons. When I look to the rest of my library including some fairly mainstream games like Vampire: The Requiem and Legend of the Five Rings 5th Edition it is not like a thing at all to treat noncombat as so fundamentally different for just one set of characters. This might be one of those essence of Dungeons and Dragons things that is actually fairly universal.

I will say that in the instance of there not being meaningful rules for noncombat things I prefer to simply rely on fictional positioning instead of semi-fungible skills.
 
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Nagol

Unimportant
At the end of the day unless you are willing to meaningfully design the noncombat prowess of martial characters while explicitly defining the noncombat prowess of spell casters you cannot have meaningfully balanced classes because the game design is not finished. It will be designed in motion. That is not necessarily like a problem. It's just a thing.

I do find it somewhat strange that one of the constant critiques of Fourth Edition was that the rules focused to much on combat when many fans were desperate for more noncombat stuff for fighters and rogues who are now told they cannot have noncombat stuff. Not like wrong. Just strange.
Why do you find it strange? It's not like a critique of one game tells you anything about how people feel about another. Likely, it just means the concerns are prioritised.

This division feels pretty unique to Dungeons and Dragons. When I look to the rest of my library including some fairly mainstream games like Vampire: The Requiem and Legend of the Five Rings 5th Edition it is not like a thing at all to treat noncombat as so fundamentally different for just one set of characters. This might be one of those essence of Dungeons and Dragons things that is actually fairly universal.
Some games have specialists who are the only ones who can operate effectively inside a particular space: Cyberpunk's Deckers, for example. Other classed games, like Earthdawn, also have a category of classes who focus pretty strictly on combat and classes that more broadly interact with the world.

Games that gate abilities in other ways than defined classes tend to not have such a distinction.

I will say that in the instance of there not being meaningful rules for noncombat things I prefer to simply rely on fictional positioning instead of semi-fungible skills.
I dislike reliance on fictional positioning in the absence of meaningful rules or at least sufficient examples and precedent where a shared expectation of capability and probability can exist. Explicit rules make the system easier to grok, helps identify the designers biases and expectations, and find edge cases where the model begins to break down.

Relying on fictional positioning alone tends to devolve into either Cops and Robber-style "I hit him, You totally missed!" as expectations and motivations of the participants diverge or into the Rule of Cool where abilities functions just well enough to keep the narrative flowing to meet a particular desire (which can be fun for a session or so, but I dislike for anything longer). It also tends to rely too heavily on the judgement of the GM or equivalent whose job it is to update the fictional positioning to account for actions and results.

I find skill challenges still suffer from this though at least the demarcation of the end state helps prevent the "trophy is always just out of reach" anti-pattern DMs can fall into.
 

MichaelSomething

Adventurer
I dislike reliance on fictional positioning in the absence of meaningful rules or at least sufficient examples and precedent where a shared expectation of capability and probability can exist. Explicit rules make the system easier to grok, helps identify the designers biases and expectations, and find edge cases where the model begins to break down.

Relying on fictional positioning alone tends to devolve into either Cops and Robber-style "I hit him, You totally missed!" as expectations and motivations of the participants diverge or into the Rule of Cool where abilities functions just well enough to keep the narrative flowing to meet a particular desire (which can be fun for a session or so, but I dislike for anything longer). It also tends to rely too heavily on the judgement of the GM or equivalent whose job it is to update the fictional positioning to account for actions and results.

I find skill challenges still suffer from this though at least the demarcation of the end state helps prevent the "trophy is always just out of reach" anti-pattern DMs can fall into.
Isn't manipulating the fictional positioning\Gamemaster the essence of D&D though?
 

Nagol

Unimportant
Isn't manipulating the fictional positioning\Gamemaster the essence of D&D though?
It's the essence of all roleplaying, I suppose. Games added rules so that some form of objective or shared measure replaces reliance on judgement alone to mitigate and alleviate differing expectations and interpretations..
 

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