What is the essence of D&D

[Maxperson]

@Tony Vargas it's right here...

"Martial: Martial powers are not magic in the traditional sense, although some martial powers stand well beyond the capabilities of ordinary mortals. Martial characters use their own strength and willpower to vanquish their enemies. Training and dedication replace arcane formulas and prayers to grant fighters, rangers, rogues, and warlords, among others, their power."

It's very clear that martial is an atypical kind of magic in 4e. Had it been non-magical, they wouldn't have deliberately gone out of their way to use the above language. Instead, they would have said, "Martial powers are not magic."

 

[Maxperson]

Laugh all you like. Quotes and facts beat feelings.

 

[Tony Vargas]

Seriously, Max, look up metaphor or figurative.

It is funny, though.

 

[Maxperson]

Seriously, Max, look up metaphor or figurative.

It's not written figuratively or as a metaphor, though. The way it's written is as an explanation of how martial powers work. Remember, martial isn't a source of skill or ability, it's specifically a POWER source. It needs to be a type of magic to be a power source.

 

[Tony Vargas]

It's not written figuratively or as a metaphor, though. The way it's written is as an explanation of how martial powers work.

Its a flavor explanation, sure, not written in jargon. And, yes, it uses magic in the familiar, figurative sense of exceptional, or incredible.

Remember, martial isn't a source of skill or ability, it's specifically a POWER source. It needs to be a type of magic to be a power source.

Let me get this straight: your assertion is that Strength, Willpower, Dedication and Training yielding Power can only be magic?

Seriously?

Venus Williams's serve is magic?

Pavarotti's voice is magic?

Seal Team Six took out Bin Laden with magic?

Laugh all you like. Quotes and facts beat feelings.

Fine.

Cast Dispel Magic on a fighter in Reaper's Stance and stand next to him, see how that goes. Now try it on flaming sphere.

Just because two powers accomplish similar things - in this case auto damage for standing in the wrong place - doesn't mean they're both magic.

The unwillingness to accept that martial ability can rival magic is evidence that, at least for you, the Primacy of Magic theory is quite consistent.

You're just one self-selected respondent though.

But, y'know, thanks for your support.

 

[Maxperson]

Fine.

Cast Dispel Magic on a fighter in Reapers Stance and stand next to him, see how that goes. Now try it on flaming sphere.

This proves nothing other than it's not a traditional type of magic. The section on power sources specifically says it's an energy source, not a method of being really skillful. Skill isn't an energy type. Martial is. It needs to be an atypical form of magic for it to A) be an energy type, and B) allow martial characters to do what would otherwise be supernatural things as martial characters and not magical ones.

The unwillingness to accept that martial ability can rival magic is evidence that, at least for you, the Primacy of Magic theory is quite consistent.

Go out and see if through training, you can do everything a fighter can through level 30. I'll even give you a few years to practice. My unwillingness is to accept that mundane(not the same as martial) can rival magic, since magic by definition can do supernatural things. This also does not equate to magical primacy. Magic can color objects through prestidigitation, yet no amount of training will allow a martial character to do such a nearly useless thing.

I do accept that martial can rival magic, since martial is an atypical form of magic that allows the user to access energy to accomplish things that would ordinarily take traditional magic.

 

[Maxperson]

double post

 

[Tony Vargas]

I do accept that martial can rival magic, since martial is an atypical form of magic that allows the user to access energy to accomplish things that would ordinarily take traditional magic.

Anecdotes are not evidence, and a sample size of one proves nothing, but, wow, you are so on the nose.

I want to assure everyone that Max & I are not colluding. I have not suborned or coached him in any way.

 

[Hussar]

See, while I'm not really interested in rehashing edition war garbage, I'd point something out.

Come and Get It. It was the poster boy for 4e critics. The power that couldn't be explained. It was everything bad about 4e.

So, you'd think that CaGI type powers would be all over the game right? After all, if it was such a HUGE issue, then it should be something that comes up all over the place. Funny thing is, it doesn't. If you look at the 4e PHB, between the Fighter, Ranger, Rogue and Warlord, the 4 specifically non-magical classes, you have, across 30 levels, about 240 different powers total.

How many of those do you think fit in the CaGI mould? 50? 100?

Nope.

Six.

There were a grand total of 6 powers out of 240 that worked like Come and Get It where you couldn't just chalk up the maneuver to training or other non-magical sources.

Six.

That's all it took.

Six.

Six powers out of the over TWO HUNDRED in the PHB for people to freak out about how unrealistic martial characters in 4e were and how they were doing magic stuff without casting spells.

Six powers.

 

[Garthanos]

Really, though, at bottom, it's transparently an action-movie-reality power.
D20, in general, especially modern, could do with more abilities so on the money as C&GI.

Actually its probably less functional than movie bits (has more in common with that boxers move I mentioned earlier (or the Kenjutsu or Kendo ones) in that regards because basically you are already pretty much in range 10 ft? pshah the movie shots often have far more range 3x that wouldn't be bad at all .. and works against the arrogant and high ego types just as much or more than the more lesser foes.