D&D 5E What is the "Simple" Full Casting Class?

[Neonchameleon]

Clerics never prepare more spells than Wizards with an equivalent casting stat, and the Cleric list almost never changes (seriously, they've gained all of 20 spells over the decade that 5.0 was published). I can't see any argument for how it isn't just straight-up easier (NOT easy, just easier) to get a handle on that.

Minor objection but only a minor one: once you take subclasses into account the wizard is actually at the low end of spells prepared unless they've been getting spellbooks as loot. This is especially true under the 2024 rules where all cleric subclasses, all warlock subclasses, and 3/4 of sorcerer subclasses gain two extra spells known per spell level.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I'm sure that's true for you - but I haven't played with you. Every Warlock I've seen as a DM works like this. Me: "You're up. What do you do?" Them, "EB!". Next Round. Me,, "Your turn!" They, "Pew Pew!"

I'm exaggerating (by a little) but I see a lot of people on ENWorld that complain that a Champion Fighter is boring, and I think that CF is a thrill-ride next to a Warlock.

YMMV especially under 2024 rules. I mean I see how you can get there if you've made poor choices in invocations (Agonizing Blast plus ones that didn't make it to 2024; there are a lot of bad invocations in the 2014 PHB with over a quarter of them just being dumped), and you keep the incredibly overrated Hex spell running from one of your two slots rather than only ever casting it before a short rest because warlocks play best when they play dirty.

But the only reason I can think of to do that is because you want to play the warlock that way rather than as a tricksy and versatile character (mostly illusionists under 2014 rules; much more flexible under 2024). Some people don't find combats interesting and want to autopilot them, and a warlock is the only caster that can do this. Their kinks are not my kinks but I don't begrudge them the choice.

And even if you find the 2014 warlock as repetitive as the champion in combat then the warlock is massively more useful in social situations (charisma class with cantrips).

 

[Baron Opal II]

Yeah, the are. When you level, you get two spells from the LARGEST BY FAR spell list if you are a wizard.

Even at 1st level, you pick 6 out of something like 40+ 1st level spells!?! Still more than double the cleric list even if you are only using the PHB. Meanwhile, the cleric picks 4 or 5 out of 15.

That's why I limit wizards to 12 spells depending on guild, clerics 9 per temple. Adds to theme and reduces decision paralysis.

 

[Guest 7037866]

That's why I limit wizards to 12 spells depending on guild, clerics 9 per temple. Adds to theme and reduces decision paralysis.

Is this a limit they get to choose from or the limit to what they have in their available spell list??

In the game we developing, casters are limited to 3 cantrips and 8 spells (which scale).

 

[Baron Opal II]

Choose from; in my campaign a wizard usually starts knowing 3 first level spells from a tradition list of 12 specific spells, plus prestidigitation or thaumaturgy as a cantrip. When second level spells become available, there are a specific 12 that they will have access to. They can research other spells on the list "easily", spells not on their list with "difficulty". There are some spells that they can't research because they are guild secrets. You need the proper mindset to learn the spell in the first place, which is gained through apprenticeship. It can be done, but usually needs some skullduggery and cleverness.

 

[Neonchameleon]

I've seen a 13 year old completely new to D&D pilot a cleric reasonably well.

Preconstructed one from DoSI.

Any warlocks in the starter sets?

Not that I'm aware of - which is a huge pity. I mean the at will invocations for Silent Image, Disguise Self, Jump, and Magical Force Field (False Life) are all both very easy to use and very much character defining for several levels.

With bew players I normally ask for a concept and offer to build it for them. Example eg archer. They can rebuild it if they feel like.

Likewise ... when I don't start at level 0

 

[Gorck]

I know I'm late to the party, but the way I see it:

Bard = Spells + Bardic Inspiration
Cleric = Spells + Channel Divinity
Druid = Spells + Wild Shape
Sorcerer = Spells + Metamagic
Warlock = Spells + Pact Magic + Invocations

Wizard = Spells + . . . more Spells

So I voted Wizard as the simplest full caster.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Minor objection but only a minor one: once you take subclasses into account the wizard is actually at the low end of spells prepared unless they've been getting spellbooks as loot. This is especially true under the 2024 rules where all cleric subclasses, all warlock subclasses, and 3/4 of sorcerer subclasses gain two extra spells known per spell level.

Okay. The spells you get as a Cleric though are fixed by your domain, so...not really any choice involved there.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Okay. The spells you get as a Cleric though are fixed by your domain, so...not really any choice involved there.

Again this depends on whether you are talking at character creation or at run time. Taking my current wizard's planned level 4 into account:

They will have 7 prepared spells out of fourteen in their spell book (and their only combat cantrip is True Strike)

• Their seven non-prepared spells will all be rituals (which have already proven very useful); there's no juggling here, just remembering if they have a useful ritual.
• Their first level prepared spells are going to be Mage Armour, Shield, Absorb Elements, Tasha's Hideous Laughter
• Their second level prepared spells are going to be Invisibility, Rime's Binding Ice, and Rope Trick

At runtime that character is exceptionally easy to run - they only have one relevant tool for any given situation unless it's a ritual.

Meanwhile at runtime the cleric will be harder; they have eleven rather than seven prepared spells and those spells are frequently chosen with less care. And at fifth level it gets even worse.

But it takes system knowledge to make a simple wizard just as it does a simple warlock.

 

[Retros_x]

Clerics. There is almost no danger of permanently ruining it for a noob player because you can change spells every long rest and there is not the feature flood of warlock. Clerics also having better hit dice and proficiencies make them a bit more survivable than wizards.

I never understood why so many answer warlock to this question. I had 2 noobs at my games play Warlock and they had a horrible time. You need to really understand the system to play a warlock efficiently and its quiet easy to ruin your build by choosing wrong class feats. Also the limited spell splots are frustrating to new players who wanted to play a spellcaster to go buckwild with their spells and not to cast "Eldritch Blast" 95% of the time. Warlock also have more "difficult" demands to roleplaying due to the whole patron pact stuff, but my players liked this part of the class. Nowadays I always treat Warlock as an advanced spell caster class and advice newbies to take cleric or wizard.