Level Up (A5E) What is the vision of the high level fighter?

[FrogReaver]

A fighters usual magic items substantially affect the things that fighters do best or fill gaps that then make them very effective. Magical weapon, magic armour, magic shield?

A wizards magic items usually allow them to do more of what they already do. Staves and wands. The Robes of the Archmage are probably the best increasing attack roll (most useful for cantrips when so many spells are save based) and spell DC by 2. This is the only item that adds to a wizards DC to my knowledge.

The magic items that a fighter gets will often protect against the effects of spells.

The magic items that a wizard gets can do little to protect against physical attacks. Even the robe of Archmagi will do little to blunt a high level fighters attacks.

Is this fair or am I totally out of whack?

that’s a fine point but one I’m not sure is true. Wizards don’t get many things that directly boost their spells Like fighters do their attacks but some items grant very powerful effects and wizards can freely take those instead.

 

[FrogReaver]

They absolutely do exist...until level 10, when having them keep up with reality warpers and superheroes whilst remaining grounded in a natural universe that obeys the laws of physics snaps my personal reality suspenders to a painful degree.

the you aren’t designing d&d.

 

[TheSword]

that’s a fine point but one I’m not sure is true. Wizards don’t get many things that directly boost their spells Like fighters do their attacks but some items grant very powerful effects and wizards can freely take those instead.

Yes that is true, but those effects generally aren’t better than what a wizard can do with spells. They just give more of the same, and don’t off the wizard enough protection to physical attacks.

Thats why it’s not possible to take magic items out of the discussion for comparison purposes because they benefit from them differently.

 

[FrogReaver]

Yes that is true, but those effects generally aren’t better than what a wizard can do with spells. It just gives more of the same, and don’t make the wizard immune to physical attacks.

Thats why it’s not possible to take magic items out of the discussion for comparison purposes because they benefit from them differently.

Fair point but I’m not so sure.
Fighter takes a strong magic sword. Vs. wizard takes a flying carpet.

doesn’t that tend to put the wizard even further ahead?

that is to say the ability to do more single target damage and be hit less are the least impressive effects imaginable.

 

[TheSword]

Fair point but I’m not so sure.
Fighter takes a strong magic sword. Vs. wizard takes a flying carpet.

doesn’t that tend to put the wizard even further ahead?

that is to say the ability to do more single target damage and be hit less are the least impressive effects imaginable.

Yes, it is a fair point. Flying is extremely powerful.

I do think there are non-magical counters to that though. Terrain or having a flying mount for instance (the latter is of course is circumstantial). I also think with so much adventuring happening ‘indoors’ it is not as useful as one would think.

Even the simple longbow in the hands of a high level fighter would give a flying wizard pause.

Closing distance will always be one of the objectives of a h2h fighter but magic too has become closer. 60 ft or 30 ft seems to be the standard.

 

[Micah Sweet]

the you aren’t designing d&d.

The you? Do you mean, "Good thing I'm not" designing D&D? I think we're all designing this version of D&D.

 

[FrogReaver]

The you? Do you mean, "Good thing I'm not" designing D&D? I think we're all designing this version of D&D.

no. I mean removing the mundane fighter from leveling up to 20th as all others Will make the game not d&d for too many.

adding alternate prestige classes is cool though.

 

[Minigiant]

For the most part

The Fighter want magic items that reduce or remove the limitations of the physical body when dealing with the supernatural: magic weapons, magic armor, magic mounts and transportation

The Wizard wants magic items thatreplace spells in order to save space on what they have to prepare.

The Rogue wants magic items that add or increase the application of their skills: vision, speed, instant tools

The Cleric wants a mix of all of the above but is least picky. They ironically are the most broken when they get what items they want.

This is why there should be a fighter archetype, prestige class, or epic destiny that add 2-3 atttunements to the character as well as allows the fighter to bond with special mounts faster. This way the magic sword, magic armor, and pegasus/carpet doesn't count against the fighter's attunements.

 

[Minigiant]

no. I mean removing the mundane fighter from leveling up to 20th as all others Will make the game not d&d for too many.

adding alternate prestige classes is cool though.

Personally, having the fighter stop at level 10 feels like a cop-out.

I feels like a group of people wanting a preference but not wanting the consequences of that preferences or not wanting to deal with the question at all.
Much like a woman wanting to marry a handsome rich person but not wanting to deal with high society's rules and the schemes of other suitors.

But I really can't blame anyone in the community. The onus of choosing what a high level fighter is was never placed on anyone but the designers.

A person can easily dodge the question of superhuman, magic item, magic spells, divine boon, or deadly strikes. Only designers and DMs of high level play need to answer the question. So very few are forced to make a decision and deal with the consequences.

And this is why classes like the fighter, ranger, monk, sorcerer and others have or had vision problems.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

Good beholder tactics but I don’t really see how it makes the fighter irrelevant. It’s a 120 ft cone so not quite as easy to dodge in and out of. The beholder shuts its eye and then sends as many eye rays as it likes. It’s a fun monster but not ridiculous for either to fight because as you say the beholders strongest anti magic nerfs it’s own threat. Now throw a few allied ogres into the same fight and now you really want to have a fighter standing between them and the wizard.

I guess the principal is there though. antimagic, counterspell, spell resistance, energy resistances, spell turning etc all make things really difficult for a magic user but barely scratch a fighters abilities.

Isn't it telling then, that even with things made really difficult for wizards and the fighter's abilities barely scratched, the caster still generally comes out ahead?

I personally don’t believe fighters are better. But I don’t think they’re worse either. Just different. You’re comparing oranges and apples. Each excels in their own area.

Like the way Fighters excel in combat, and wizards excel in exploration, and combat?

The days of casters having a spell for every occasion are long gone with limited spells known per day. This isn’t 5e where a caster has every utility spell tucked away in a wand. Neither do the changes to spell duration and number of subjects allow this.

Combat and exploration in 5e is dominated by role playing and skills. The casters make little dent in this, their spells are icing. As has been said earlier, they are convenient but hardly necessary.

Combat in 5e is dominated by attacks and spells. Exploration is dominated by spells, and if they aren't applicable then both the fighter and the wizard are down to skills.

Yes that is true, but those effects generally aren’t better than what a wizard can do with spells. They just give more of the same, and don’t off the wizard enough protection to physical attacks.

Of course those effects aren’t better than what a wizard can do with spells! Spells are really good.
Every Lightning bolt that a wand grants a wizard daily is an extra clairvoyance, or hypnotic pattern, or fly spell that can be used to solve a combat or exploration problem before anyone else even gets to start reaching for their ability check dice.

It is very telling that most of the items that people regard as necessary for the fighter to be viable at high levels are just replicating the effects of spells a wizard has had access to for multiple levels already.