What It's Like For a Gamer Girl

[Piratecat]

All righty. No more hijacks, please; posting anything off topic (and that includes "what is a whore?" commentary) will get your post deleted.

In retrospect, I'm going back and deleting a portion of the off topic commentary. Feel free to email me if you have any questions.

 

[Morbidity]

Please follow Admin directions about staying on topic.

 

[ES2]

I would have to say that this 'discussion' of a whore by some of the guys on this thread is going to leave the impression to Afrodyte and other women that guys are immature, no matter the age and in a way will reinforce what she already was thinking when she first posted...

guys are immature, unable to reasonably discuss a serious question, and she may take something she sees as important kind of personally when half of this discussion has bashed her for just asking what she was just wondering about.

either be serious about her questions, or just don't reply in any way. If you want to be a$$e$, then be a$$e$ on your own time with your own friends and don't put a person down on here for asking a few questions.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Please follow Admin directions about staying on topic.

~ Piratecat

 

[Kahuna Burger]

I can see, though, why there is such enthusiasm for debating the couresan thing: Kahuna Burger has finally found an area of the debate in which everyone participating is so ignorant that it is vastly easier for one to allege that ENWorld is overtly sexist.

Since the overtly offensive post and my response to it has been summarrarily removed, I'd appriciate it if you didn't try to represent the contents to those coming in late. Especially doing such a poor job of it.

Oh, and Bard and Enchanter are game mechanics, a courtesean is one possible character role for them. Its as silly as saying that there is no role for a proffessional bodygaurd in D&D because a person who wanted to protect people could play a fighter or a monk...

EN World is not overtly sexist. It is however male dominated. And the tone and presupositions of many threads show this. You can take my words to the latter effect as a claim of the former, but its what we in the professional field like to call bulls***.

Kahuna burger

 

[Piratecat]

Since the overtly offensive post and my response to it has been summarrarily removed, I'd appriciate it if you didn't try to represent the contents to those coming in late. Especially doing such a poor job of it.

My fault, KB, not his; when he posted that, I hadn't yet removed the OT "courtesan" posts. I was reluctant to partially edit Fusangite's post, and the rest of it was on topic, so I just left it as is. I can see how you'd mistake that for someone beating a dead horse, though.

In fact, unless I'm mistaken, Hong is beating his dead horse right now.

So let's let that particular subject drop, please - including this whole "courtesan" thing - and get back on topic.

I think it's a fair statement that gaming in general, as well as EN World, is male dominated. I tend to see that about 15-20% of gaming con attendees are women, and I think that percentage is about accurate overall, although most female players I know are lest active on message boards than most male players I know.

Given that there are at least four men in the hobby for every woman, the question becomes: how does a group of male players make their game more accessible to female players, and should they change their normal playing style to accomodate a new member (male or female)?

 

[drnuncheon]

Given that there are at least four men in the hobby for every woman, the question becomes: how does a group of male players make their game more accessible to female players, and should they change their normal playing style to accomodate a new member (male or female)?

Well, the answer to the second question depends entirely on the answer to another, so far unasked question:

How badly do you want the new person to remain in the game?

A lot of people who are taking the defensive 'It's the new player's responsibility to change' are really saying 'we don't want a new player badly enough to alter our behavior' - which is fine, nobody says you have to always want more people in your game. I play in a game with 2 players and a DM, and we have all said that we don't want more people because it would completely alter the group dynamic.

If, however, you are serious about wanting a new player (of any gender) to join and stick with the group, then you have to be willing to either compromise or search a long time to find someone who fits in with your existing play style.

As for the first question, 'invite them' works the best. After that, treat women (both in the game and out of the game) as people rather than objects or monsters. Treat the women like any other player - find out what they're interested in (don't assume) and incorporate it into your game.

J

 

[Desdichado]

Here's my late-breaking opinion on the matter(s):

• I refuse to believe that gamer guys are different than guys from any other demographic. That's one thing I've definately noticed lately; gamers are the same kind of people I meet anywhere else.
• Mars/Venus, etc. are useful books because they are often true. It's fine for a few people here and there in the thread to pop in and say they don't belong to the stereotypes they espouse, but for a good 95% of the men and women I've met, those books are the absolute Bible on their behavior. These wild accusations that the books are useless, tripe, should be burned, etc. (I know, I'm paraphrasing) strike me as both extremely odd and extremely ignorant. (considering the timbre of this thread, maybe I should add a meaningless disclaimer that this is my personal opinion, not mean to offend, blahblahblah.) After all, there's a reason they are wildly popular, doncha think?
• fusangite hit the nail on the head: there's no correct way for a given gaming group to behave except what the members of said gaming group decide. If established groups have trouble assimilating new members, chances are they don't really want new members unless they are new members that already act like they do.
• For what it's worth, lately I typically game in mixed company; in fact, we game as husband and wife teams in many cases. And yes, the wives (mostly) are new gamers that don't know the rules very well.
• Also for what it's worth, I tend to speak argumentatively and authoritatively about most things. I will readily admit when my knowledge is inadequate, but otherwise, I stick to what I say. My wife thinks I'm unduly "hard" about stuff like this, so maybe I do it worse than most, though. Most guys I know do the same.

 

[WizarDru]

[*]Mars/Venus, etc. are useful books because they are often true. [/i]

The problem with "Mars/Venus" is that it's a light pop-psychology read. The author is more concerned with being cute than very helpful. Men and women, in general, are very different, particularly in communication, conflict resolution and other issues. "Mars/Venus" only gives fairly simplistic advice about such issues...helpful, perhaps, but most of it is fairly intuitive. And when you consider that the author ended up getting a divorce after writing it, it tends to lessen the value I'd grant his advice.

[*]fusangite hit the nail on the head: there's no correct way for a given gaming group to behave except what the members of said gaming group decide. If established groups have trouble assimilating new members, chances are they don't really want new members unless they are new members that already act like they do.

I think that's pretty spot on. If a group wants a new member who's style doesn't mesh with their existing style, they need to decide if they're willing to accomodate that player's style.

As for attracting and keeping female players...well, I don't think that it's a fait accompli that if you run a certain type of game or heighten certain elements that you will have a greater chance of attracting a female gamer, per se. I think the process you use to bring them into the game is as important as the game itself. IME, many potential female gamers are put off the game by poor treatment from other players, not by the game itself. I've had female gamers who are bloodthirsty, contemplative, shy, rules mechanics and in-depth roleplayers. I couldn't specifically say they adhered more to a specific type, honestly. Does that reflec the gamer community at large as a whole? I don't know. But I believe that the biggest barrier to entry is a lack of an inviting envornment and mentoring. When I was in college, having some people not view every female gamer as a girlfriend-in-the-making was a victory in and of itself.

 

[Desdichado]

The problem with "Mars/Venus" is that it's a light pop-psychology read. The author is more concerned with being cute than very helpful. Men and women, in general, are very different, particularly in communication, conflict resolution and other issues. "Mars/Venus" only gives fairly simplistic advice about such issues...helpful, perhaps, but most of it is fairly intuitive. And when you consider that the author ended up getting a divorce after writing it, it tends to lessen the value I'd grant his advice.

Yeah, that tends to come across as a particular irony. And it just goes to show you that there's a massive difference between successful understanding and successful application of what the book is trying to tell you.

The fact that it's a "light pop-psychology read" which I wouldn't disagree with, doesn't lessen the value of what it says. It told me a lot of stuff that hadn't occured to me (about myself as much as about my wife) at least. Was it intuitive? Yeah, but sometimes that kind of stuff needs to be pointed out in plain English.

I think that's pretty spot on. If a group wants a new member who's style doesn't mesh with their existing style, they need to decide if they're willing to accomodate that player's style.

Yep, exactly. Me? I tend to come from pretty tolerant groups that are flexible in terms of style, to a certain extent. But that's what works for us, and that's all I'd claim it is. I've been with other groups that played other ways, and had a good time with them even.

As for attracting and keeping female players...well, I don't think that it's a fait accompli that if you run a certain type of game or heighten certain elements that you will have a greater chance of attracting a female gamer, per se. I think the process you use to bring them into the game is as important as the game itself. IME, many potential female gamers are put off the game by poor treatment from other players, not by the game itself. I've had female gamers who are bloodthirsty, contemplative, shy, rules mechanics and in-depth roleplayers. I couldn't specifically say they adhered more to a specific type, honestly. Does that reflec the gamer community at large as a whole? I don't know. But I believe that the biggest barrier to entry is a lack of an inviting envornment and mentoring. When I was in college, having some people not view every female gamer as a girlfriend-in-the-making was a victory in and of itself.

I'd agree with this. I said earlier that I don't accept that a sample cross-section of gamers is significantly different than a sample cross-section of any other demographic, and I think that applies here as well. Treat women gamers the same way you would other women in other situations. If that means being a jerk to them, then your problems go much deeper than what roleplaying can address.