What It's Like For a Gamer Girl

[Teflon Billy]

1. Why is it that male gamers are often so condescending? If I ask a question, why does it seem like they think I am completely ignorant? Whether they know the answer or don't even understand the question, why is it that I often get the answer I'd say was reserved for (to put it politely) the lowest common denominator?

I know in my group, a certain knowledge of the rules is expected, and if anyone were to ask a question, they most likely would be treated as if they were completely ignorant--and the answer framed for the lowest common denominator.

It's mostly just in an effort to get the question answered. There's really too little game time to waste much trying to ascertain the "proper" way to answer a question so as not to make a person feel persecuted.

You ask a question. You get an answer. It doesn't get more simple than that.

Complaining about it would get on my nerves, and I don't think that's gender-based

2. Why is it that when I'm cranky or touchy, I'm suddenly thrust into the position of being a representative of all female gamers instead of just having that kind of day? Or, if they see me always losing patience with them, they never seem to question themselves or reflect on why I get irksome. A very exaggerated example. (snipped example)

Classic.

When someoine is "cranky or touchy" around me, they don't get Kid-Glove treatment in an effort to make their gaming experience more enjoyable. They get told to smarten the F*** up, or take it home...this would include the guys who are hassling you incidentally.

But Hassling each other is how guys interact.

You've chosen to game with a group of guys.

Adapt.

Constantly being on them to adapt to your needs is likely a reason I would "always see you losing patience with me" and "never question myself on why (I am) irksome"

If I was playing with a group of women and my behaviour was objectionable to them I wouldn't expect them to start behaving like my guy friends. I would go with the majority or leave.

This a group game, group dynamics rule the day. Don't be so hard on them for being guys. This generation (mine) has been trained that women are no different than men. You may well be being treated like they treat each other.

If so, congrats. The revolution my mother's generation set in motion has succeeded

Again, my game time is far to limited for it to be used to coddle people who can't keep their Crankiness or Touchiness under control..gender doesn't enter into it.

3. How come guys often state their opinions as facts, and their requests as demands? Now, I would concur that this is probably less a male-female interaction thing than varying definitions of what it means to be tactful. However, when I'm communicating, guys often mistake my saying, "I feel that..." for "It is an indisputable fact that..." What's worse, I often feel like they expect me to be more conscientious regarding their feelings than they are of mine.

Well, like I said above, they are interacting with each other the way guys interact with each other. If you want a round table "My feelings ..." type discussion about every facet of your emotional state, I'd say look elsewhere than a largely male group of D&D players.

It's like looking for water in the desert: It's there, but it's amid an awful lot of sand.

Why is it that so many guys think that saying, "Please don't do (whatever it was I did to upset them) again" is completely reasonable, but my saying, "Listen, John, when you do/say XYZ, it makes me think you believe I'm (insert unflattering adjective here)" is me being hypersensitive?

Because it sounds like touchy-feely new age psychobabble is why.

If the message your trying to get across is...

"Please don't do (whatever)"

They why frame it as...

"Listen, John, when you do/say XYZ, it makes me think you believe I'm (insert unflattering adjective here)"?

Again, if we're generalizing; men are "goal oriented" (we want the question out, answered and to move on) while women are process oriented (you want the question examined from every single angle, all the while making sure that the questions are framed so as to not ofend anyones sensibilities).

You're talking to guys. Talk like a guy.

You mention above that you kow how to, and are aware what works. Go with that.

4. Must guys have an opinion for eeeeeverything? Is every statement up for debate? Why is it that guys often take a difference of opinion or preference as an opportunity to convert me to their way of seeing things? It doesn't matter what it is. Why do they always try to win, even if there's nothing to win in the first place? Or, whenever I disagree with them, they try to undermine my thoughts and feelings rather than the issue at hand. There is no quicker way to feel sub-human than to have your capacity for conscience, feeling, and rational thought questioned at every turn. When I express some variation of this, do I get, "I see where you're coming from. My bad"? Nope. I get, "You shouldn't feel that way."

It's called debate. It how people find workable standards. If you want it to stop, just say "This is simply opinion, there's no "right" answer here" and refuse to discuss it further.

Somehow I suspect you aren't alking about game-related issues here.

What's so infuriating about all this is that so much could be nipped at the bud by applying a little bit of forethought and a little bit of awareness that people are different but still deserving of the same respect.

The irony is so rich here, I could cut it with a knife.

What's doubly aggravating is that I try to extend this courtesy to everyone I meet, but it is often not recognized as courtesy, and that same consideration is often not reciprocated. I'm getting very tired of that, and I'm starting to let people know. Unfortunately, I don't get it right all the time, and this causes people to think I'm some sort of lunatic or some cold, heartless b****.

Well, it's a hard lesson to learn. When you take people to task constantly for what they believe to be "small-potatoes" you don't get to be thought of as a forward thinking facilitator.

I'm sure that you honestly think of your actions as simply "starting to let people know", but I asure you that it's coming across as preachy.

Preachiness doesn't winds friends or influence people. It makes people avoid you.

Thanks for listening.

I live to serve.

 

[The_Gneech]

The following are just observations and a bit of opinion. I am in no way convinced I'm right. It's completely subjective ...snip... I just want to give you my perspective and come to some sort of consensus on these experiences.

Wow, disclaimers a-go-go! Perfect for starting a conversation with a group of women, but rhetorical suicide when trying to address guys. You should definitely look into the Men are From Mars, Women Are From Venus recommendation.

At the risk of sounding condescending (which is not my intent, but since you mentioned it as a problem), I'll address the points of the above paragraph one at a time. Guys in general:

* Don't put anywhere near as much value on opinion as they do fact.

* Believe, "If you aren't convinced you're right, why the heck should I listen to you?"

* Wonder, "Why are you mentioning that it's subjective? You already said it was opinion, so I already KNOW it's subjective."

* Don't care a flying leap through a rolling donut about consensus; they want a strong leader to make a decision and go with it.

The basic answer to all of your questions is pretty unsatifying but is, essentially: Many if not most guys are like that and that's not going to change. Sorry. If this bothers you, seek out the oddballs who aren't.

-The Gneech, insensitive clod

 

[Teflon Billy]

This is perhaps the most useful and perceptive post on this thread yet.

This is a pretty common phenomenon, and one that is forced upon boys from an early age. They are taught that there is no difference between women and men, so when they interact the boys inevitably treat the women the same. And as much as some women might claim they want it, I've never met one that truly did.

[vicious]You're smarter than you look Upchurch [/vicious]

Seriously though. That's a good point I wish I had included above.

 

[leeann_the_lame]

Might I also suggest:

He Says, She Says: Closing the Communications Gap Between the Sexes
by Lillian Glass

Although I haven't finished it, I found it helpful. Say what you want about stereotypes: when they apply you may as well learn them.

Also - I might suggest that the differences between Afrodyte's post and Teflon Billy's post succinctly capture this debate.

 

[Enkhidu]

I second (third?) the idea about reading Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus. Quite a lot of your problems here result from incompatible communication.

 

[Teflon Billy]

Also - I might suggest that the differences between Afrodyte's post and Teflon Billy's post succinctly capture this debate.

HOLLA IF YOU HEAR ME!!!

 

[heirodule]

3. How come guys often state their opinions as facts, and their requests as demands? Now, I would concur that this is probably less a male-female interaction thing than varying definitions of what it means to be tactful. However, when I'm communicating, guys often mistake my saying, "I feel that..." for "It is an indisputable fact that..."

As Mr Rogers said (should be ok for Eric's grandmother)

"Boys are fancy on the outside, girls are fancy on the inside"

thus boys perceive thing objectively, and girls subjectively.

Its just a fact

 

[The Sigil]

I just think of "My Fair Lady."

"The question is not, 'do I treat you as well as the Colonel.' The question is, 'have you ever seen me treat anyone else better'?"

THAT pretty much sums up what you need to ask yourself about these guys - are they treating you differently than each other? If so, it's because they're sexist. If not, it's because they've accepted you as "one of the guys."

My understanding is that the difference between women and men is not that men are vicious with each other and women are nice with one another. My experience is that both are equally vicious, spiteful, nasty, and general a--holes.

Women:
Are nice to your face.
Will not directly humiliate you when BOTH of you are in public.
Are vicious and backstabbing behind your back.
Will try to arrange for you to be humiliated in public where their role is indirect so that they are not implicated (goes back to "appearing nice in front of everyone").

Men:
Are jerks to your face.
Will directly humiliate you when both of you are in public.
Surprisingly, tend to stick up for you behind your back.
Don't try nearly as hard to humiliate you without implicating themselves... they want everyone to know who humiliated you.

In other words:

Women and men are both a--holes. And they're both nice. The difference is that women will protect your front and stab you in the back while men will stab you in the front but protect your back.

I have a funny feeling, Afrodyte, that if an "outsider" showed up to one of your group's D&D sessions while you were away and tried to bash you behind your back, he'd be pummelled by the rest of your group. Again, the guy mentality relative to girls in the group - WE can tease her because she's one of our own, but you better not disrespect our princess or we'll bust you in the chops. (again, the whole "got your back" thing)

My opinions, of course.

--The Sigil

 

[Trainz]

Afrodyte, I have had 5 different women in my past 18 years gaming experience, and everything was always groovy.

Why ?

I don't game with jerks.

You are venting your frustrations about your current situation by pointing the finger at the whole male gender... beleive you me, it is not all males that act like that: you game with jerks.

Please don't generalise. Males are not all Evil. Pit Fiends, yes, Kobolds, most of them, not human males.

 

[Pielorinho]

Afrodyte, I have had 5 different women in my past 18 years gaming experience, and everything was always groovy.

Why ?

I don't game with jerks.

Hear, hear!

I'm pretty grossed out by what I see as crazy overgeneralizations in this thread. IME, genderalizations have enough exceptions that they're pretty useless as predictive tools. Treat everyone as an individual with an individual, peculiar psyche, and you're best off.

Daniel