What kind of magic do you like?

[WSmith]

I have to agree that, while I personally don' t like core magic, it does work and is simple. For the sake of simplicity, if I could figure out a way to eliminate the slot/prepared/X per day/ known stuff, but keep the spells as is, I would love to use that. So essentially, take the sorceror, a spontaneous caster, and remove the limit per day and # of known spells. If you want to cast a spell, you cast it by rolling for chance to succeed, (which could mean a varitey of different things, but to me means that the caster has gathered enough mystical energy in the area to channel.) The DC to cast is based on something (haven't relly thought of what) but maybe a spellcraft check having something to do with the caster level, as well as spell level and if the caster has cast the spell before, to bring the imagined spell to reality by focusing the force energy around him. It might (and probably should) take longer to cast, (maybe one round per spell level as a general rule).

Balance would have to be considered. Maybe some temp or subdual damage. Although I have expressed the thought of some kind of temp damage, after futher consideration, I think I would avoid this, unless some kind of over-channeling was occurring. The fighter does not take damage for using his own combat ability. The rogue doesn't take damage for using his skills, (unless he fails, which could be messy ) so why should the spell caster take damage for using his special ability, as long as he is doing it sensably? Also, it would IMO make casters less attractive is they took damage for every spell they cast, not just the over-channeled ones.

All that aside, I like the WOT channeling. Eosin, I would love to see the WOT rules adapted to a non-WOT setting. I like that there are only two casting classes. I like that there are no magic item creation feats.

While on magic item creation feats, in my standard D&D game, I would do away with all except for maybe scrolls, and even possibly potions. All other magic items would be considered (mostly) minor artifacts, crafted in an age of magic many moons ago. One would be very lucky to stumble upon such great works, as the art of creating such items has long been forgotten.

Armor and chance for spell failure: I like what 3e did, if it gets in the way of somatics, than roll, otherwise don't worry about it. Of course with my ideas used above it would be nothing for a caster to imbue himself with mage armor.

Although, I do really see the use for book wizards, (like Harry Potter) , I personally for my own game don't like that flavor of magic being a science.

 

[apoptosis]

I am one who actually likes the vancian system even in a more roleplaying/storyline sort of way.

What i really prefer is for different magic to use more different mechanics (instead of all magic using a spell slot system).

In my world (lower magic world)

i acutally like the slot system in regards that a wizard could do many powerful things but cant answer all problems magically whenever they want. Wizardry is more of a science, and while wizardry is the most powerful art, it takes a lot of time to construct spells (1 hour +1 hour/spell level)

Divine magic is mysterious and might work or might not, the gods are fickel (skill roll).

Sorcery is from connections to the outer planes and pacts with extradimensional beings and is costly to use (subdual damage when casting spells).

Druidic magic is similar to divine magic but is much more primal and wild.

Elven magic is subtle and not real powerful but is considered sophisiticated and doesnt require gestures and chants and anything to primitive (use the psionic rules...without the displays and it is called elven magic).

I like the idea that different cultures came up with different ways to supernaturally affect the world instead of just one way (like The WOT).

Apoptosis

 

[WSmith]

Apoptosis, I really like some of your ideas, especially the Elven magic.

In a way, I agree with Monte Cook, that sorcerers should have a differnent spell list.

 

[hong]

I wish they had lower level Planar Binding spells - so you could summon a pathetic wretch to do your menail work all day long without having to fight like a well-trained warrior (BAB +4, 24 hp).

Eh? That's exactly what unseen servant is for. The spell gives you the mechanics; you can handwave the descriptive text any way you like.

 

[WSmith]

Something just hit me. Quite a few people don't like material components for spells. The statment of I made above gave em an idea, though. Opinions would be very helpful.

I made the comment that a fighter or rogue can use his ability without a limit during the day. That is not entirley true. What if the fighter was not a skilled swordsman, but a adept archer. He could use his longbow as much as he wants, IF he has the ammunition, i.e. arrows. When he is out, he needs to find or purchase them.

What if, in place of the limit per day, the caster could cast as many spells as he has material components for? Just like the arrows, they would get marked off on the character sheet. When he is out, he needs to either purchase more, or find it.

You could make one kind of material, (arcane dust) for all spells, or one per level, (1st level spell= arcane dust, 2nd level=tarrowroot, 3rd level=ground animal bones etc.).

Thoughts?

 

[Victim]

First of all, I don't really like systems that would have extremely powerful casters that take subdual damage/ability for casting really neat spells. This distaste mostly comes from a Shadowrun game, in which a min-maxed (to an absurd degree - it was most players first time with the game) wizard could pretty much clear rooms with Stunball (?) or Fireball spells, and outshoot most other characters because he had a Locked spell that gave him faster reactions than the best wired reflexes that our group had. Bleh. Also, self damaging spells can set up an infinite loop effect, as the caster takes damage from the spells, and then removes more it with another spell than he takes from that spell. Psions with Body fuel and Trigger power can be broken, right.

I don't really mind preparing spells at the begining of the day. I think that's 1/2 the fun of spellcasters. I've seen 2e games in which some people where spontaneously casting somehow. They simply searched through Spell Compendiums until they found the Perfect Spell (TM). It slowed the game down, was overpowered, and removed all the strategy from spellcasting. I like my spellcasters to have to use their smarts or wisdom to use their brains to prepare the most useful spells.

IMHO, the 3e magic system does a fairly decent job. It's relatively simple, has a pretty wide variety of effects, and is playable. There are a few things I don't like, however I'll deal with those last.

Flashy vs Subtle: I don't really have a problem here. Flashy and subtle magics can be equally effective. Because of the saving throw changes, enchantments can be pretty decent, and evasion puts a nice damperon the loud evocations. If you less flashy magic, tell the players, and then tell them that lots of the enemies will be rogues, so if they defy convention and try to blast everything, they won't be very effective. For extra flashy magic, add special effects to normally quiet spells. There are quite a few few super cool things that can only be done with less flashy magic. Probably the coolest magical trick I did with my cleric wasn't throwing Fireseeds, Flamestrikes, and a Harm; it was Stone Shaping the floor underneath an enemy so he fell through.

Game breaking spells: Again, I don't have a problem with these spells. They're fun to toss around, for one thing. They would probably result in a very different world, but it's an interesting challenge to try and figure out what that world would be like. Some of the most interesting discussions I've been involved in here have been ones on the interaction of magic with mundane elements of society, like warfare, assassinations, logistics, law enforcement, etc. However, these kinds of changes certainly aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea. However, in many cases, it seems that the high level characters that can throw around these magics aren't those person's cups of tea either. Maybe low levels would be better. Finally, dropping these spells would have other effects. Instant death stuff would have to be diminished, etc. If you change something, consider the results of the change. BTW, these spells might be better described as World Breaking, as opposed to game breaking, since the mechanic effects, especially in combat, aren't that great.

My main problems with the magic system are somewhat related; I don't really like abundance of "kill-ap" spells aren't so much game breaking as spells that define the ways battles are fought, and magic items.

I don't really like the incredible amounts of magic items need. They're needed for game balance, so I'd rather not mess with it without doing lots of work - and I'm pretty lazy, so that's not going to happen. A 20th wizard with normal gear could probably kill 4 20th level fighters with normal gear and not have a scratch.

However, I'd have rather seen characters without as much spellcasting ability get Super Feats, and some innate powers instead of magic items. I can see a fighter with a magic sword, armor, and a few other things, but not so much stuff that he needs 50 page book to keep track of them. Instead of needing See Invis goggles, a ring of protection +5, cloak of resistence +5, etc, I'd have rather seen super feats like Sharpened Senses that lets the character have much better chances of spotting, listening and pinpointing invis creatures, Greater Resistance that takes the place of the cloak, Combat Intuition that gives large insight bonuses to AC. This way, the power of a character is based more on the character itself, and not the awesome stuff he carries around. I'd like to maintain pretty much the same effects, but change the flavor text from magic items to natural abilities. Characters would still have some magic items - magic items are cool, and because some things that characters would probably need would make no sense as innate powers, like Fly for a human.

Second, there are a number of spells and abilties that aren't really game breaking, but completely change the way people fight. Flight and the Fly spell are one such ability. Remember the thread about the 20th level Paladin that got roasted by the dragon a few days about. At high levels, if you can't fly, you're just a target. Improved Invisibility is another such spell. Heal, Mass Heal, Fly, Haste, Mass Haste, Improved Invis, some form of see invis, most of the buffing spells are all good examples. These spells aren't really optional for most casters; going without them is like bringing a knife to an Artillery duel.

As an example, I'll use our group's battle at the end of the Heart of Nightfang Spire. Spoilers below!.

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The good guys: 7 people of mostly 10th level, we had one or 2 9th level character and one 11th level wizard.

The bad guys: Gulthias the 13th level vampire wizard, and a wight assassin.

Every character involved in the battle had both Fly and Improved Invisibility. So there's NINE invisible people flying around at the start of the battle.

Our group was buffed with Bull's STR, Endurance, and a number of Greater Magic Weapons. Gulthais took the time to buff himself up as well, but I don't know the exact spells.

Only my cleric (via item), our wizard, Gulthias, and the wight can see invisible creatures.

Gulthias was hasted, and the wight may have been hasted as well. If our wizard had lived long enough, he would have cast Mass Haste.

That's a whole lot of "must have" magics going around. If my character didn't have See Invis from a ring, we either would have 1 or ZERO survivors. The fact that our wizard was dropped like a bad habit by Finger of Death before he could do anything is a good reason for ressurection magic, BTW. If we didn't have that ring, or if I had used fewer buffs before the battle, we probably would have died, mostly because not enough people could see invis. If we didn't have enough fly spells, some people could have had to sit out because they never would have reached the battleground.

In other words, there are too many spells that you can be completely $%&@@! without.

 

[drothgery]

All that aside, I like the WOT channeling. Eosin, I would love to see the WOT rules adapted to a non-WOT setting. I like that there are only two casting classes. I like that there are no magic item creation feats.

Ahem. There are no core item creation feats.

<The rules I came up with not long after the rulebook came out, and which I think work on Jordan's world are linked in my signature>.

 

[reapersaurus]

However, I'd have rather seen characters without as much spellcasting ability get Super Feats, and some innate powers instead of magic items. I can see a fighter with a magic sword, armor, and a few other things, but not so much stuff that he needs 50 page book to keep track of them. Instead of needing See Invis goggles, a ring of protection +5, cloak of resistence +5, etc, I'd have rather seen super feats like Sharpened Senses that lets the character have much better chances of spotting, listening and pinpointing invis creatures, Greater Resistance that takes the place of the cloak, Combat Intuition that gives large insight bonuses to AC. This way, the power of a character is based more on the character itself, and not the awesome stuff he carries around.

Second, there are a number of spells and abilties that aren't really game breaking, but completely change the way people fight. Flight and the Fly spell are one such ability.

Very good points here.

I am increasingly wishing for a system that actually gives 'Super abilities' that are innate to the character instead of requiring them to buddy up to a mage to allow them any chance of surviving.

Solving every game-balance problem that stems from magic by fighting the problem with more magic doesn't make any sense to me.

The only easy solutions are to remove certain game-breaking spells, or limit the spells available.

Here's a quick thought, I'm curious as to opinions on:

What if all mages had to choose one school to cast spells from?

 

[mmadsen]

I hate 75% of the classes in the PHB having spell ability.

It probably just didn't occur to them at the time, or they thought it would be too great a change, but I feel like those classes with spellcasting at higher levels are the perfect opportunity to introduce Prestige Classes.

A low-level Scout could become a spellcasting Ranger (or just a Druid), and a low-level Fighter (with "holy" Bonus Feats) could become a spellcasting Paladin (or just a Cleric).

 

[mmadsen]

I'd love to see either a conversion of the Shadowrun system or something very close.

Could someone give a brief explanation of Shadowrun's magic system? Was it just a spell roll with nasty fumbles?