What makes a successful superhero game?

[overgeeked]

I think at least one of us confused my point.

Well, you certainly confused my point.

Metacurrency awards are good at representing frequency, which seems like what you're talking about, because they're self-regulating; the player brings them in in part because it seems appropriate and in part because they want the metacurrency points, but either way they'll take care of it themselves.

The problem cuts in when you want to represent intensity, that is to say how strong the effect is supposed to be. Example: acrophobia. This could range from "avoids situations with heights whenever possible (even when tactically inconvenient)" to "the above, but takes serious penalties to operate in that situation" to "cannot force themselves to engage with heights deliberately under any circumstances." (This latter actually probably represents my degree of personal acrophobia).

There are ways to deal with that sort of distinction, but they tend to require more fine-grained metacurrencies than almost anyone seems to deal with, so you never see it in practice.

You're talking about handing the player shiny tokens for RPing these kinds of things that they can spend later to do cool stuff.

I'm talking about using these kinds of things as recovery mechanics or heat sinks for damage.

Taking a step back it's a question of how to get players to emulate the things we see in the fiction. Carrots and sticks, though carrots always work better than sticks. The common approach is metacurrency. But that means we have to build a system for that and noodle through all the possibilities, permutations, etc. This action is worth 1 shiny token, but that action is worth 15 shiny tokens, etc. And we have to accept that some players just won't engage with these mechanics. So how do you get a player to engage with genre emulation? Make the carrot shinier and more integrated into the play loop.

What I'm suggesting is instead of metacurrency give the PC 3-5 vents or heat sinks. Player defined. The player hits the button and the PC recovers damage, uses, tchotchkes, whatever.

As I see it this has four benefits over standard metacurrency setups. First, it more closely emulates real people. We're inconsistent. This setup would make for inconsistent use of vents. Second, it more closely emulates the actual fiction. Action-adventure fiction...and especially superhero fiction...tends to follow a clear pattern of action scene then soap opera scene, or action action soap. This setup would push for more soap scenes. Gotta recover from the last fight before getting into the next one. So tie recovery to the soap scenes. Third, it requires less rules and writing. Fourth, it removes the possibility of the player hitting the button repeatedly to stockpile metacurrency. Once you're fully recovered, that's it. No more going back to the well.

Your PC is angry and frustrated about the last fight so they have to vent. Once they vent they feel better and are ready to face the next challenge. Which is almost exactly what you see in superhero fiction.

You could still have metacurrency, but it would be less bloated and used for other things.

 

[chuckdee]

They stretch across at least two genres, same way the Punisher does. Note that the distinction between the Black Widow and and some spy characters is almost invisible, and the difference between Cap or the Winter Soldier is sometimes little other than the fact they're superhuman in attributes when being used in certain ways. If you pulled the helicarriers out of it and subbed in something like a set of weaponized space stations Captain America: The Winter Soldier would have been in that category.

in what category? I don't see how helicarriers vs space stations has anything to do with genre as I look at Moonraker...

 

[chuckdee]

Anyway Bucky and Black Widow imho are super-spies who only get the Superhero tag because they happen to be in a Superhero movie.

Bucky has been Captain America before... he has the exact same boost as Captain America, i.e. the supersoldier serum. It's not black and white by any means.

 

[Tonguez]

Bucky has been Captain America before... he has the exact same boost as Captain America, i.e. the supersoldier serum. It's not black and white by any means.

sure, but Bucky with the shield is a darky grittier Captain - so anti-hero.
Also the Supersoldier serum isnt the 'heroic boost' I was talking about, thats just their Powers. Steves Heroic Boost is the thing that lets him wield Mjolnir and why he can stand against Thanos or Thor and come to a draw or stalemate rather than defeat.
By contrast when Bucky with the Shield faces Red Skulls daughter (weilding a Mjolnir-style Hammer) he is defeated - ie while Bucky might have the Powers of Captain America (including the Shield) he does not have the "Heroic Boost" that makes him The Captain America.
Admittedly that story was designed to be Bucky 'passing the shield' back to Steve, so he had to lose, but it still underlines the point that Bucky is still the sidekick to Steve's Superhero

 

[chuckdee]

sure, but Bucky with the shield is a darky grittier Captain - so anti-hero.
Also the Supersoldier serum isnt the 'heroic boost' I was talking about, thats just their Powers. Steves Heroic Boost is the thing that lets him wield Mjolnir and why he can stand against Thanos or Thor and come to a draw or stalemate rather than defeat.
By contrast when Bucky with the Shield faces Red Skulls daughter (weilding a Mjolnir-style Hammer) he is defeated - ie while Bucky might have the Powers of Captain America (including the Shield) he does not have the "Heroic Boost" that makes him The Captain America.
Admittedly that story was designed to be Bucky 'passing the shield' back to Steve, so he had to lose, but it still underlines the point that Bucky is still the sidekick to Steve's Superhero

And there goes, IMO, the 'folly' of taking that line and drawing it by what happens in a certain storyline- comics are written by several writers, and each of those writers will have their own biases and desires for that particular storyline, mixed with/mitigated by the wants of the editorial staff (to a different degree depending on the star power of the writer). It follows similar to the very popular arguments of who beats who given their power levels- when the power levels have nothing to do with it; it's the storyline, whose comic it is, and who they want to boost.

 

[GrimCo]

@Tonguez

My Marvel lore is mostly limited to MCU, it's been over 20 years since i read any regular Marvel comic. When it comes to Marvel, Punisher MAX and stuff like Furry: My war gone by is my jam ( i like Garth Ennis's take on superheroes) , along with stuff like The Watchmen, The boys, Marshall Law, Kick Ass, stuff like that. So when talking about Cap, Bucky, BW, i'm going by movie versions.

Problem with big name mainstream supers is that they are inconsistent with their portrayal when it comes to their abilities. Some of them are very old and went trough numerous changes over the years and different writers.

Another thing is that some stuff that works in comics or movies, doesn't work in ttrpgs. Avengers work in comics/movies. But in tttrpgs, it falls apart cause no one want's to play Hawkeye or BW when playing big guns is much more fun, specially if it's more action oriented game.

 

[Tonguez]

@Tonguez

Another thing is that some stuff that works in comics or movies, doesn't work in ttrpgs. Avengers work in comics/movies. But in tttrpgs, it falls apart cause no one want's to play Hawkeye or BW when playing big guns is much more fun, specially if it's more action oriented game.

I know I'm weird but I'm someone who likes to play the BW-type character, As much as I like the Hulk I also like skill monkeys, characters who dont have big flashy powers but who have the smarts and skills to attend to the little things, create a distraction, sneak in behind the Bad Guys and win the day.

Narrative games like FATE allow me to do that - While my friends Hulk and Ironman are smashing enemies, Cap is creating a perimeter advantage to protect civilians, I can be doing a stealth infiltration to disable the Portal, taking out a few mooks for flavour on the way

 

[chuckdee]

I know I'm weird but I'm someone who likes to play the BW-type character, As much as I like the Hulk I also like skill monkeys, character who dont have big flashy powers but who have the smarts and skills to attend to the little things, sneak in behind the Bad Guys and win the day.

Not too weird. Or either I'm weird too. Your pick.

 

[ShinHakkaider]

My GM ran the game in "A" DC universe, but not "THE" DC universe. Which, for me, is what interests me most about playing in a supers game. I don't want to play or even run games about established characters. Like...WHY? Most of the times where I've seen people run established characters, they role-play them NOTHING like the actual characters! So, just creating your own has always seemed like the better option to me.

Also, Superteams have always been a thing in my games, not everyone can be the big guns and most of the time, the big guns aren't needed to take out a threat. A lot of the time, the mid to low-range heroes are enough. Superman or Thor doesn't need to show up to stop the chemical plant or tech heist. And even during the fights against major foes, you need people who are going to wade through the hordes of Parademons or Doombots while Superman and Wonder Woman pack up Darkseid / Or Iron Man, Thor and Wonder Man pack up Dr. Doom or Ultron, or Graviton. Seriously, you don't even need to go far to see how that works, just watch Season 1 & 2 of JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED.

And dismissing the low to no power heroes? When there's a JLA story (written by Grant Morrison) where Connor Hawke (Green Arrow) and the Atom take out Darkseid? C'mon ya'll...

 

[ShinHakkaider]

I know I'm weird but I'm someone who likes to play the BW-type character, As much as I like the Hulk I also like skill monkeys, characters who dont have big flashy powers but who have the smarts and skills to attend to the little things, create a distraction, sneak in behind the Bad Guys and win the day.

Narrative games like FATE allow me to do that - While my friends Hulk and Ironman are smashing enemies, Cap is creating a perimeter advantage to protect civilians, I can be doing a stealth infiltration to disable the Portal, taking out a few mooks for flavour on the way

You're not weird,man. The Avengers and JLA can't all be filled with flying bricks/artillery platforms. They need the stealth/infiltrators as well.