What makes D&D, D&D?

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*

 

[Oofta]

It seems like every time I hear this argument, it’s in defense of some mechanic that the game could be improved by removing or changing. So, based on my experience, it seems like what makes D&D, D&D is outdated mechanics desperately clung to for no reason other than that they’ve been present in earlier versions of the game.

Has there been any of this on this thread? Don't get me wrong - no game is perfect, and no game is for everyone. But if you don't like it, change it or don't play it.

 

[Oofta]

Is that like the theory that there cannot be good without evil, cool with suck, and awesome without terrible?

Are you trying to say that the Paladin is just in there to make us thankful for the rest of D&D?

To paraphrase Shakespeare, "methinks lowkey13 doth protest too much".

 

[daimaru42]

I think only magic using medieval worlds need apply.

 

[Henry]

Well, true, but I'd say that the thief, or "thief concept" (not the fighter, magic user, or F/MU (aka, Cleric) is one of the four cores.

I think you have to include Supplement I, as it had key things like differentiated damage dice (ie d8 for a longsword), the thief, and the PALADIN. Cannot be D&D without the paladin.

I didn't include him for two reasons:

(1) The thief wasn't as inferred in the original quote as the fighter, cleric, and wizard were (the person 'holding the line' sounded more like a fighter to me, but fair enough, it could have been a rogue)
(2) Prior to the white box D&D having Supplement I come out, it was still D&D. It was, in fact the argument could be made, the MOST Dungeons and Dragons of all Dungeons and Dragons.

 

[Charlaquin]

Has there been any of this on this thread? Don't get me wrong - no game is perfect, and no game is for everyone. But if you don't like it, change it or don't play it.

No, not in this thread. But this thread brought the subject up in a different context than I typically see it. I do like D&D, I just think it could be better if it wasn’t so hamstrung by these sacred cows.

 

[Oofta]

No, not in this thread. But this thread brought the subject up in a different context than I typically see it. I do like D&D, I just think it could be better if it wasn’t so hamstrung by these sacred cows.

Meh. One person's sacred cow is another's touchstone. Take ... I don't know ... HP as an example. It's horrible. One minute you're fine, the next you're unconscious. WTF? But what's the alternative? The death spiral?

HP are simple and easy to understand. Death spiral and variants? Not so much. Keeping track of different pools or percentages of HP is a pain and finicky paperwork that doesn't add enough to the game to justify the cost.

So are HP a sacred cow, or just the best compromise for ease of play, understanding and tracking? I'd say the latter.

I'm sure we could go on, but I'll reiterate. Don't like the game, don't play. Don't have a contribution to what makes D&D D&D? Why post? Free country and all but D&D is the most popular pen and paper RPG out there and more popular than ever. Holy bovine and all.

EDIT: fixed typo. BTW the HP vs death spiral was just discussed over here

 

[guachi]

I will add Tiers of Play.

It's probably my favorite thing about the BECMI boxed sets aside from coloring dice with a crayon. It's most obvious with the transition from level 1-3 dungeons and the wilderness of levels 4-14.

 

[GreyLord]

THAC0
Declining AC
Exceptional Strength
only Fighters get Bonuses from CON over 16
Level Limits
Assassins as a Class
Illusionist as a Class
Maximum Spell level for Clerics and Druids is 7th
High Level Spell Casters can cast up to 9 spells per spell level
Human Classes have no limit to how high a level they can attain.
You have name level
You stop rolling Hit dice after name level and only get between 1-4 HP per level after that
Thief Skills are percentages and you can also do ability checks for moving quietly, hiding behind things, and other various mundane tasks not defined by Thief Skills
XP = 1/GP Treasure gained
Rangers do +1 dmg/lvl to giant class humanoids
Fighters can specialize and double specialize in weapons
You have to fight for the right to be a high level monk or Druid
Multiclass characters are only Demi-humans
Multiclass means you are gaining XP in both classes at the same time
Fireballs do more damage at the rate of 1d6/level of the caster of the spell
Races are Human, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, Gnome, Half Elf, and Half Orc
Classes are Fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Cleric, Druid, Monk, Thief, Assassin, Magic-user, Illusionist.
If you want expanded it can be Barbarian, Cavalier and Acrobat with an expanded prestige type class called the Bard.

 

[GreyLord]

To be honest, D&D has changed in it's very fundamental foundations.

It was a VERY different game when 3e came out. I'd even say 3e was a completely DIFFERENT game than the D&D. It just slapped the name D&D on it and from thenceforth was KNOWN as D&D.

Though it was the secondary system when the three booklets came out, the THAC0/To Hit tables quickly became the default way to play (probably because no one really knew the chainmail rules). Once Greyhawk came out, that's basically how the game got played.

Those items stayed fundamentally D&D and AD&D from the very beginning all the way until 3e came out.

As for classes, the key classes were Fighting Man/Fighter, Cleric, and Magic-user originally (With the Cleric being sort of in between the Fighting man and the Magic-user), but once Greyhawk came out, Thieves were an integral part of D&D, so much so I'd say they were an essential part.

Thus you'd have the VERY essentials as being Fighter, Cleric, Magic-user, and Thief, with essential races being Human, Elf, Dwarf, and Halfling.

In D&D I'd say the to Hit tables/THAC0 (and Thaco has been around since AD&D 1e despite what some may think) and descending AC along with the divisions of how saves were actually were the DEFINING items of what made D&D...D&D. It didn't matter whether it was BX, BECMI, or AD&D, these items were in D&D. This would also include variable damage dice for weapons eventually, but originally, even that wasn't really what mattered.

However, those elements can all be found in the Original game as well at some point.

3e changed all of that. Defining what makes D&D after 3e becomes FAR MORE MURKY.

I'd say you'd still have the class of Fighter, Cleric, Magic-user and Thief. You'd still need the races of Human, Elf, Dwarf and Halfling. You still need alignment. You still need Hitpoints and Levels...

But beyond that, between 3e and 4e...things changed so drastically that really...these are some of the basic elements. THAC0 and descending AC along with the different save groups were tossed out as well as how spells advanced and how spells even worked in some instances.

Interestingly enough, if you look at the 5e Basic rulebook (it's free even!!!) you'll find those basic elements (the four classes and races) in it. It keeps the very basic essentials across all the editions with in it!