What makes Great Weapon Master and Sharpshooter so good?

[Staffan]

Most of your total cover ideas can be negated by simply flying above the target.

And thus, the existence of the Sharpshooter feat combined with flying spells explains why dungeons, not castles, are the primary form of fortification in D&D settings.

 

[CapnZapp]

Times of optimization lie behind me. Possible. But unfun. Buildup often means suffering for many levels until combos come online. And when you are finally there, combats are often not as you expect them. If your games are that repetitive more power(gaming) to you.

I have yet to see a build from you that deals enoigh self sustained damage from level 1 onward that shows how op GWM is.
I have yet to see the build that does 50 more points of damage than the non optimized one without unreasonable assumptions.

Thank you for switching your argumentation over.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Thank you for switching your argumentation over.

I see it more as an additum.
A lot of builds assume bless casted on you. That is a full round of casting. Bless is a concentration spell. Clerics having to put resources in keeping up bless mpre easily means losing out somewhere else. Paladin aura is often used in builds to shore up defenses. That either assumes generous stats or hexblade multiclass. You find barbarian rage or avenger oath as a source of advantage which is also not always on. Admittedly that is something that indeed happens usually in fights were stakes are high. Bit then both paladins and barbarian need a bit more work to make use of GWM since their base damage is higher due to rage or smite.

And then last but not least other feats cam make a fight completely unnecessary. Magic initiate disguise self or actior come to mind. Alert could also prove more useful as you might get to act one extra turn where the GWM is just surprised.

 

[CapnZapp]

I see it more as an additum.
A lot of builds assume bless casted on you. That is a full round of casting. Bless is a concentration spell. Clerics having to put resources in keeping up bless mpre easily means losing out somewhere else. Paladin aura is often used in builds to shore up defenses. That either assumes generous stats or hexblade multiclass. You find barbarian rage or avenger oath as a source of advantage which is also not always on. Admittedly that is something that indeed happens usually in fights were stakes are high. Bit then both paladins and barbarian need a bit more work to make use of GWM since their base damage is higher due to rage or smite.

And then last but not least other feats cam make a fight completely unnecessary. Magic initiate disguise self or actior come to mind. Alert could also prove more useful as you might get to act one extra turn where the GWM is just surprised.

Sorry now you're just grasping.

The hard minmaxing fact remains: offense is the best defense. Removing the foe's hit points is the goal of combat. If you play a fighter or other martial your primary job is this and nothing but this. Having feats that make you twice as good at your job, is simply unsustainable - it drastially reduces options in the game, since it is decidedly unfun to play a build that kills foes half as fast as your buddy.

Everything else is just words.

Why are you so opposed to the concept that the devs have failed to rein in the balance of a few feats?

If you're not running a combat-focused campaign where DPR matter, why oppose the idea of errataing these feats? They wreck some campaigns and don't bother others, so fixing them will stop them from disrupting the first category while still not impact the second. It's a win win situation.

You come across as someone trying everything in your power to not have to concede these feats are too good.

Why? What is so devastating about such a conclusion that makes you work so hard at avoiding it?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Sorry now you're just grasping.

The hard minmaxing fact remains: offense is the best defense. Removing the foe's hit points is the goal of combat. If you play a fighter or other martial your primary job is this and nothing but this. Having feats that make you twice as good at your job, is simply unsustainable - it drastially reduces options in the game, since it is decidedly unfun to play a build that kills foes half as fast as your buddy.

Everything else is just words.

Why are you so opposed to the concept that the devs have failed to rein in the balance of a few feats?

If you're not running a combat-focused campaign where DPR matter, why oppose the idea of errataing these feats? They wreck some campaigns and don't bother others, so fixing them will stop them from disrupting the first category while still not impact the second. It's a win win situation.

You come across as someone trying everything in your power to not have to concede these feats are too good.

Why? What is so devastating about such a conclusion that makes you work so hard at avoiding it?

I stopped when you said "twice as good" that is plain wrong. Even at white room that is not true. And in actual play it is even less true.
It is fact that feats are good or say the best to make a pure GW fighter more awesome. And that is exactly what as full feats they should be doing.
There is nothing devastating. I don't try hard to avoid it. It is fact that they are a bit overrated and not as OP as you seem to believe.
And you already have a fix for your game. The half feat "cleave" which is also at the right power level. I still wait for a caculation that makes a GWM deal "twice as much" damage... or say 50% more.

 

[Coroc]

[MENTION=6922357]Rossbert[/MENTION] apart from your flanking rule i see it exactly the same, playing a ranger with SS, with my DM i always have to take a good guess wether to use the -5/+10 or not. With SS the constant no disadvantage whith cover / range Thing seems to come up nearly as often and is of course totally useful then. Like warcaster or lucky.

It is all about context. Had i taken +2dex instead of the feat i would have had disad due to cover on some occasions but i would have had +1 to hit +1 damage + 1 armor +1 dex save all the freakin time. So the feat is balanced, nothing more nothing less.

I guess it might improve a bit on higher Levels when your base to hit goes up , with opponent armor about staying the same, but then you might also need it because the mob has insane hp.

 

[CapnZapp]

It is fact that feats are good or say the best to make a pure GW fighter more awesome. And that is exactly what as full feats they should be doing.

No.

What the feats are doing in practice is invalidating every other fighter build that wants to damage foes.

It reduces variety. It outdistances throwing knives, spears or what not by such a large margin it is not even funny.

Moreover those feats (together with a few unfortunate cantrip builds) invalidate monster stats to the point where mid- to high level CRs become jokes.

They are entirely bad for the game and must be nerfed in combat focused campaigns.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

No.

What the feats are doing in practice is invalidating every other fighter build that wants to damage foes.

It reduces variety. It outdistances throwing knives, spears or what not by such a large margin it is not even funny.

Moreover those feats (together with a few unfortunate cantrip builds) invalidate monster stats to the point where mid- to high level CRs become jokes.

They are entirely bad for the game and must be nerfed in combat focused campaigns.

Still waiting for a build that does what you say. Its your turn to prove how it is OP.
Until now you are jist stating it with no backup whatsoever. If you show me the build based on sound assumptions I will evaluate it and might get to the same conclusion. Right now you are just babbling.

 

[MrHotter]

For home games, this is easy enough to deal with. After seeing all the controversy over these feats, I've house ruled that anyone using a -5/+10 action would auto miss on 1-5 rather than just on a 1. That should make it so the player may not want to use the feat every attack even on low AC foes.


I'm sure different DMs have a different idea of how to balance these feats (up to removing them from their game), but as long as they communicate their house rules before the characters are created, then it should work out for the table.

 

[CapnZapp]

Still waiting for a build that does what you say. Its your turn to prove how it is OP.
Until now you are jist stating it with no backup whatsoever. If you show me the build based on sound assumptions I will evaluate it and might get to the same conclusion. Right now you are just babbling.

I'll clue you in to a start: create a Battlemaster with GWM (or better SS/CE) using Precision manuever; and getting Advantage from your favorite source (could be somebody casting Faerie Fire, could be a barbarian attacking recklessly, or a monk stunning the target just to mention three).

But that's all I'm gonna do.

Why? Because you're not new around here - you know I have been active in GWM threads since the dawn of time (or at least the release of 5E).

And I'm not going to repost the math only for you to ignore it, thus wasting my time. The above start is what you're getting from me.