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D&D 5E What new classes do you think we need?

G

Guest 6801328

Guest
To nitpick, the Sunblade, ??? (I would of said destruction domain, but they dropped it), and Alter Self spell all help approximate those examples

By George, you're right!

That's exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about: use an existing class, re-fluff it a little bit, and call it a day.

The new Kensai sub-class (which I loathe) with a Sun-blade, and few levels of Warlock would just about do it.




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Yunru

Banned
Banned
So where do you draw the line, then? I mean, monks are already borderline-inappropriate for a fantasy setting, but should it also include a specific class for gunslingers? Can we really fault D&D for not including a computer-hacker, or giant-robot-pilot class?

D&D isn't generic fantasy. While there are an infinite number of campaign worlds that can be described under the D&D ruleset, that infinity is still a tiny subset of fantasy worlds, which is itself a tiny subset of fictional worlds.
You never do, you just keep printing sweet, sweet profit settings books.

In seriousness, I'd say I'd draw the limits at when it stops being fantasy (as a genre, rather than "fictional"). Which doesn't impose many constraints.
 

Corwin

Explorer
True enough, classes and races alike are campaign specific. But DnD spans many campaigns and thus it not being setting appropriate loses meaning as an argument against.
Furthermore, some (other) systems are better at emulating certain kinds of play. That can include certain types of roles or concepts. I don't think there's anything wrong with using a system because its better suited to emulating the kinds of particular roles one wants to play.
 

steeldragons

Steeliest of the dragons
Epic
Well, let's look at this methodically...look at what we already have and where things are missing.

It's D&D. So, we'll start with:

Fighting Man/Fighter: the generic warrior. Gottit.
Magic-user/Wizard: the generic caster. Gottit.

...then came...
Thief/Rogue: the generic skill monkey. Gottit.
Cleric/Priest: the generic supporter -lil' fighting, lil' magic, lil' skill. Gottit.

...then fill in the mixtures of the traditional subclasses...
Paladin: the Fighter/Cleric mix. Gottit.
Ranger: the Fighter/Thief mix. Gottit.
Druid: the Wizard/Cleric mix. Gottit.
Bard: the mix of everything. Gottit.
[Illusionist and Assassin covered in existing subclasses]

This basically, almost, covers [excluding Monk] what we got from D&D's birth through 2e (not counting 1e UA).

Now, in the PHB we have a couple of more...

The particular flavor warrior with its own mechanical thing (raging). Gottit: Barbarian
The particular flavor caster with its own mechanical thing (spell points). Gottit: Sorcerer.
Another particular flavor warrior[with shades of rogue/cleric] with its own mechanical thing (ki points). Gottit. Monk.
Another particular flavor caster[ironically, also with shades of rogue/cleric] with its own mechanical thing (pacts/patron powers/invocations). Gottit. Warlock.

There's everything we have [for 5e] in the PHB.

The glaring gap are...
The Fighter/Mage combo...Eldritch Knight (the Fighter with a dabble of magic) gives us this in the PHB, quickly followed up by Bladesinger (the caster with a dabble of fighting). Gottit.
and the Rogue/Mage combo is touched upon with the Arcane Trickster...I feel like the UA's attempts at Artificer also. So, we gottit.

So, the directions -for a complete full class- that appear left to explore fall under:

"Another particular flavor of [warrior/caster/rogue/priest with shades of some other class] with its own mechanical thing."

Mystic/Psion falls/fits into this.
Warlord...can/could fit into this, though arguably already exists as both the Battlemaster Fighter and Crown Paladin.
Things like Alchemist or Mastermind (rogue/skill monkey), Shaman or Oracle (priest/supporter), "Summoner" or Witch (mage/caster) could all fit into this or might be better served as subclasses to existing "base" classes.

The possibilities are, literally, endless to flesh out one's personal imaginative fantastical preferences.

But we don't "need" any of them. The options are already extensive.
 

Hussar

Legend
The problem with using the Bard for a Warlord is that it comes with a number of goodies that really aren't very "Warlordy". I mean why do I have proficiency with 3 musical instruments? Sure, I don't have to use them, but, it really doesn't fit too well does it? And I can counter charm magic? I suppose I can see that. Kinda. Seems a bit strange that my Drill Sergeant type can counter Harpies, but, okay. And, of course, I have to be very careful about the spells I choose...

I really don't see the issue here with just creating a Warlord class - either as a subclass or a thing in and of itself. Everyone seems to agree that most of the mechanics for a Warlord exist, spread across three or four classes. IOW, if it's not a problem that we have non-magical healing (fighters get that already), granting extra actions (Battlemasters get that, so do wizards, and I'm sure others do too), granting advantage or other buffs (casters, some thieves, Battlemasters) in the game, then why on earth is it a problem to combine those elements into a single class?

Those that want it, can use it, and those that don't, won't. Easy peasy.

To me, the real problem is more with people who are trying to claim that this or that "isn't D&D". It's an utterly nonsensical statement. Gunslingers aren't part of D&D? Let me introduce you to Murylynd, one of the original D&D characters. Never minding Mystara. Or, heck, right now we've got Zeitgeist on En World for 5e. Guess that's not really D&D either. It might not be something you happen to like, but arguing that it "isn't D&D" is just yet another way people are trying to justify their personal preferences to play gatekeeper for everyone else.

Instead of telling me what's not D&D, how about you keep your nose in your game and let me have what I want for my game?
 

LapBandit

First Post
We're missing Fighter. I heard they used to be a cool class that was in D&D, AD&D, and AD&D 2nd Edition. They haven't been seen since Monte Cook and 3E.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
A full-on 4e Warlord wouldn't fit in 5e's system.
I understand the apprehension, but 5e's system is not that limited nor inadequate. It has set out to cover more styles of play that past editions, not fewer, and certainly not to intentionally exclude 4e and the styles ite enabled.

You certainly can't have it enabling the ton of free attacks in 5e that it did in 4e.
Actually, 5e is quite profligate when it comes to multiple attacks, and has an action economy not dissimilar to that of 4e or 3e.

They just need a more action economy-friendly maneuver than Commander's Strike for the Battle Master, and a better designed leader sub-class for the Fighter than the very flawed PDK.
Neither are really plausible, and get to the same problem that Xeviat alluded to in the OP. Sub-class design doesn't allow for reducing or swapping out base class abilities, and the base fighter class is just too loaded with DPR to have room for cool action-economy-addressing Warlord-style power, nor for the kind of support contributions that the warlord could deliver in 4e. It's not a 5e system problem, it's a 5e fighter class design 'problem' (though only if you want to wedge the warlord in as a sub-class). The solution is a full class that does have design space for abilities appropriate to the concept.

Counter-examples: Warlord and Elementalist may offer novel mechanics, but it doesn't sound like they change the game's story very much.
The Warlord could fundamentally expand the range of campaign/genre 'stories' the game could handle, if it were given at least the range of support contributions it could make in 4e - really, the concept could handle more than that, if it were more fully explored.

The appeal of an elementalist along the lines of the Essentials Elemental Sorcerer is more strictly mechanical, in that it was a simple to build/play caster, allowing players who don't care for mechanical complexity to play something other than a champion for a change.


I suspect I'm opening a can of worms
Oh, the worms are all over already, anyhow. ;)

but I have trouble understanding this desire to largely replicate existing abilities, but "without using magic".
Magic or not-magic is kinda a big issue for a lot of fans. Psionics, in particular, should really be allowed to go either way at the DM's option, as it says something about the setting. Sure, you could re-skin a GOO Warlock as a Psion, the DM could change his Eldritch Blast to a Psionic Blast doing psychic damage, and you could pick mind-affecting and self-only spells and it could work fine. But that doesn't mean the Mystic should be shut down. 5e has many ways to the same concept, even just with the PH.

Another part of it is that we don't really want to replicate the abilities, but rather make the same sort of contributions with a different character concept, and in different ways, with different abilities.

For an example already in the game, look at the Champion, Ranger & Warlock. All three can do a lot of DPR at range. The Champion uses a bow, no magic of any king, the Ranger uses a bow augmented by magic, and the Warlock just blazes away with pure magic. The mechanics are quite distinct, thought the bulk of both the Champion & Warlocks single-target sustained DPR is from making 'at will' attack rolls. Does that mean only one of them should exist? No, of course not.

And 5e is full of examples like that. The idea that some function already being covered obviates any other concept that might fulfill a similar function would reduce the number of classes & sub-classes to a mere handful. It's nonsense in a system like 5e that already gives you so many different ways to, say, do a 'gish' concept - Fighter/Wizard, Fighter/Warlock, Paladin, Ranger, Fighter/Sorcerer, Bladesinger, Valor Bard, Fighter with Magic Initiate, caster with Martial Adept, caster with the Soldier background, etc...

To me it sounds almost exactly like, "I want an archer, with all the same abilities and damage, but I want to use firearms instead of bows and crossbows." I mean, that's great, but it's not D&D, which takes place in a magical (and non-gunpowder) world.
Not every D&D world is gunpowder-free, the 3e DMG had examples of gunpowder weapons, and PF, for instance, /did/ provide a gunslinger class. Gunpowder might seem to clash with the fantasy genre, but, frankly do do a lot of things in D&D - and, a class that provides something other than just at-will DPR as a contribution to the party's success, without using magic, doesn't necessarily class with the broader fantasy genre, anyway.

I'm really just perplexed why there's this desperate intensity to impose this condition on the game when it is almost entirely an interpretation of existing mechanics, not a change or addition.
Why the desperate intensity to resist or deny it? There's already so many instances of several different ways to similar concepts or functions within the existing mechanics, already?
 
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Tony Vargas

Legend
To answer the original question:

What new classes do you think we need?
We don't need any /new/ (to D&D) classes. Just covering classes from past editions should be quite sufficient. That means the Warlord, obviously, as the only full class to appear in a past-edition PH1 that is still excluded from 5e. Psionics has existed in some form or another in every past edition, including classes in 2e through 4e - just never quite the same classes, so the Mystic is certainly justified.

Shamans (of one sort or another), Artificers, Swordmages, etc, etc... have graced D&D in the past and could be reprised in one form or another.

Then there's the wealth of 3.x PrCs.

5e could be revisiting old classes for a very long time before getting to any new ones. ;)
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Sometimes I wonder if the right design isn't to add one more layer to the Class/Race/Background stack, which I'll call "Template". Kind of like Background, but with more significant mechanics. For example, "Barbarian" would be a template. You could be a Barbarian Druid, a Barbarian Fighter, Barbarian Rogue, etc.

I haven't thought all the way through this, so I couldn't tell you which archetypes are classes and which are templates, but that's the general idea.
4e had something like that, called a 'Theme.' A Background, in 4e as in 5e, though 5e's is more detailed, gave you, well, background, stuff from before you started adventuring that, but for a proficiency scaling, didn't change or build upon as you leveled. Themes were more elaborate and gave you a little something as you leveled, including letting swap a class power for one from your Theme.

5e could easily adapt something like that. Well, not quite as easily, since there's nothing too easily swapped in 5e class design...

.... ASI's I suppose, could be used that way. Yeah, that could work. Each Template could have a few feat-like perks that you can take in place of an ASI, maybe flavorful, +1 to 1 stat types?
 

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